Somewhat doubtful as there were also a lot of Escort Carriers using Wildcats until the end of the war.
All three Yorktown-Class Carriers survive the Pacific War.
- Thread starter CT7834
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Yes, true but the reason I can see it being prioritized more is because they have more smaller decks that are in the combat condition that needs supplementing. Not just units that are supposed to be backline. honestly, I think you can go either way it’s just a thought experiment although another interesting thing I could see is no enterprise kamikaze on the 14th maybe mirror maybe not even kamikaze making it to the fleet. 4 to 5 pre-war aircraft carriers (depending on whether or not Wasp survives) potentially six (CV-2 Lexington surviving) the US might put these admittedly older ships through a refit to retain them for postwar use. I honestly see the Lexington actually lasting as carriers longer than the Yorktown give a decent reconstruction budget and they could probably hold jets and Lexington or Saratoga showing up off shore isn’t as alarming as to the Soviets as say midway. There might even be a bit more attraction for Northrup’s smaller fighter jet.
The only way I can see the development and deployment of the Bearcat being fielded earlier is if the IJN got something like the A7M Reppu (Sam) or the Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) being deployed in larger numbers far earlier. Plus, those fighters are being used against the Escort Carriers. But that requires the Japanese Aviation Industry to be in a better position than it originally was.
If, by some holy (or unholy) miracle, the USN's Pre-War Carrier Fleet survives, then I suspect not all of it is still going to be on the frontline by 1945. For Wasp, I can see her being relegated to training duties alongside Ranger. As for the original Lexington, assuming the USN was aware of the dangers to Avgas before the war. Then there's an argument that she and Saratoga may be with Task Force 38/58 along with the Yorktowns for Night Carrier work, which may weaken the Kamikaze threat quite a bit. But post-war, that would require a US Government that didn't buy into the idea that Nuclear Weapons were the "be all and end all" of warfare. Plus, unlike modern or older supercarriers. From what i understand, ships back then only had a life span of 2-3 decades. Saratoga was nearly 30 when she was blown up at Operation Crossroads and even before the war ended. The US Navy viewed her as no longer frontline capable.
Or a pod would be the I-168 being hit by depth charges and sunk or damaged on 6 June 1942 by USS Harmann before it could sink USS Yorktown. The butterflies result in the Japanese deciding to fight out to the end in the Eastern Solomons, causing the Japanese to lose Shokaku, Zuikaku, Ryujo and Chitose and the Americans lose Saratoga (which would still run into I-26 on 31 August 1942, but the extra damage inflicted on Saratoga would result in Saratoga being hit by more torpedoes than otl's 1 torpedo to the extent of I-26's sinking of Saratoga). I-26, after sinking Saratoga and sending a relevant contact report, would be sunk on 31 August 1942 with the Saratoga's sinking the same day. I-26's earlier loss than otl would divert I-19 to sinking USS Juneau on 13 November 1942, but would save the USS Wasp from sinking and USS Wasp would take over USS Saratoga's career from 31 August 1942. USS Hornet and USS Enterprise would damage Hiyo and Zuiho (needed to replace the lost Shokaku and Zuikaku) and Junyo's counterattack, without the Zuikaku's support, would leave USS Hornet damaged but able to escape the Japanese. By 1943-1945, the US would have USS Ranger, USS Wasp replacing USS Saratoga, all 3 Yorktown class carriers and all Essex and Independence-class carriers to survive the Pacific War.
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Or you could have Saratoga’s escorts sink I-26 before she can fire off her torps.
I did think, and I am including Hammann sinking I-168 off of Midway after the battle. This was after Hiryu was wiped out in the same strike that knocked out the rest of the Kido Butai. The setup is an Anti-Submarine Patrol from the carriers find I-168 stalking Yorktown as Task Forces 11 (Saratoga arrives to replenish the Air Groups per OTL), 16 and 17. Hammann and a number of destroyers led by USS Atlanta (the Atlanta-Class Cruisers did have ASW gear and were originally meant to be Destroyer Flotilla leaders). Detect I-168 and depth charge it to oblivion.
Eastern Solomon's is tricky as aside from lack of intelligence on Nagumo's movements until the last minute. Fletcher was plagued by radio problems due to atmospheric interference. Also, I've been mulling the idea of Shokaku and Zuikaku sticking around as a threat for longer if for nothing else than "Anime rivals" reasons. Things I'm considering are Hornet being present and launching her own scouting mission. That gangs up with Enterprise's and they spot Shokaku and Zuikaku. Shokaku gets hit by 2x 500lb Bombs and near missed by the other 2. Which might actually cause a lot of damage as from what i can gather off of the Combined Fleet Website. She was still preparing a second strike. Which may have her go up the same way as Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu. Another possibility is that the haphazard strike still goes ahead and while they miss the carriers. They find Abe and Kondo's battle group and damage several ships. Primarily damaging Mutsu, Hiei, Kirishima and the cruisers Takao, Myoko and Haguro. Forcing them to turn back before sunset. Since it was the Japanese that avoided a night battle first. It means that King has very little to criticise Fletcher for and hopefully he retains command.
I'm still keeping I-26 damaging Saratoga and I-19 sinking Wasp. Primarily because I still want a bit of a struggle for Guadalcanal. Saying that, I read on Barrett Tillman's Book on Enterprise and the Combined Fleet website. That I-19 was attacked by Dauntlesses piloted by Lt Turner F Caldwell and Lt Stockton Birney Strong on 23 August 1942. Had the bombs hit, then I-19 would've been sunk and likely Wasp would have survived (at least long enough for Santa Cruz). I can still see her in frontline service for 1943 and maybe the start of 1944. But afterwards, with the arrival of more and more Essex-Class and Independence-Class Carriers. She would be relegated to training duties. Or join the other Pre-War Carriers in night ops.
From what I understand, Hiyo had a generator fire that forced her back to Truk, prior to the Battle of Santa Cruz. I'm not sure how that would be fatal.
If Hornet was still damaged the same way at Santa Cruz. The biggest deciding factors would be either air cover for her retreat. WHich an extra carrier can provide. As well as forcing back Kondo and Abe's task forces away from the battle.
If I-26 is sunk attempting to torpedo Saratoga. Not only she sticks around Guadalcanal longer. But it mostly butterfly's away the loss of Juneau and the 5 Sullivan Brothers.
That can work. Saratoga still at Guadalcanal can have a huge effect on the campaign and more importantly, keep Fletcher in command.
Another interesting effect of this is that the US carrier face less attrition. Saratoga and Lexington are very don’t get me wrong, but I can easily see them going through a refit because they’re very large carriers.
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From what I understand, it is because of their Battlecruiser origins. Lexington and Saratoga have the maneuverability of a truck compared to the Yorktowns or even the Essexes. As seen in the Coral Sea.
Saying that, I have been considering an alternate timeline. Where the US Navy decided to modernise Lexington and Saratoga in the late-30s and early 40s (pre-Pearl Harbor). Essentially, remove the 8-inch guns for dual-purpose 5-inch guns. Replace the 2 Aircraft Elevators with 3 of the ones found on the Yorktowns. Replace the open-mounted 5-inch 25 Guns with 5-inch 38s. Cut back some of the heavier armour entirely or replace it with torpedo blisters. Widened the flight deck and maybe reduce the funnel and bridge size to compensate for the centre of Gravity. A long possibility is to re-work the avgas system and ventilation.
One of the first lessons Lexington and Saratoga taught was that not only elevator size, but elevator speed are very important. As completed
the after elevator worked fine, but as aircraft grew it became less useful. In Saratoga late-war, it was permanently left it the 'up' position, and she finished her service life as a single-elevator carrier. Replacing the after elevator should be part of a modernization.
The forward elevator was large enough, but it could have been faster as well.
An alternative to holing the flight deck for a third elevator would be the small lift with an outrigger that was used mounted on the side of the hangar in Wasp. A close up can be see here
Warships that should never been built?
I tried SO hard not to have to pore more venom out on the Alaska Class, but no... The Alaska's were not fine ships. They had an exceptional 12 inch gun, possibly one of the best naval rifles every designed. Unfortunately those 12" guns were located on a battleship size hull (808 feet long, 91...
www.alternatehistory.com
Such a fit would be light-weight but still very useful.
They did get their flight decks widened forward before the war compare the line drawing above with this earlierone
I'm not sure you could make the flight deck much wider without sponsons, and I don't recall the USN using sponsons that large this early.
my thoughts,m
The Lexington have been experimental before, so it would not be an unusual thing for the ships the trial sponsons.
Really thinking about it would’ve been been a good idea anyways because they’ve learned a lot since they’re conversion to CV’s
So refit them to bring them as close to Yorktown standards as possible. It be a bit of an expensive refit don’t get me wrong but the time frame it would be key I’m thinking. 39 to 40 would be when this is proposed and the refit started. So it’s lumped in with the two ocean navy act.
At the end the day you might get an Essex sized airgroup out of them with late post war aircraft. Maybe midway levels with early and pre-war era aircraft. Keep in mind they’re only 10,000 tons less displacement a midway so there’s room for this. certainly, there’s some things that we have learned since their initial conversion to CVs that could be applied to them.
Hello,
I have an idea about possible PODs to save Yorktown and Hornet, if I may?
1) During Midway, Tomonaga and his Kate's attack Hornet instead of Yorktown. Whatever Hornet is hit or not, Yorktown would be still cruising at 19 knots, which means I-168 wouldn't be able to finish Yorktown. The carrier returns to Pearl, but not before sending VS-5 on Hiryu with Enterprise's SBDs.
2) On Eastern Salomon's, two patrolling SBDs attack Shokaku. OTL, they got near misses and their report came gambled. In here, both hit the carrier. First bomb explode on the bridge, killing Nagumo and his staff. Second one explodes deep within the ship, destroying or damaging the engines and cause the carrier to stop. No matter if it is scuttled or send to Japan, I think it means one carrier less on Santa Cruz. Which should be enough to save Hornet.
Are either of those options possible or probable? I would be interested in your opinions.
Good day or night, everyone.
I have an idea about possible PODs to save Yorktown and Hornet, if I may?
1) During Midway, Tomonaga and his Kate's attack Hornet instead of Yorktown. Whatever Hornet is hit or not, Yorktown would be still cruising at 19 knots, which means I-168 wouldn't be able to finish Yorktown. The carrier returns to Pearl, but not before sending VS-5 on Hiryu with Enterprise's SBDs.
2) On Eastern Salomon's, two patrolling SBDs attack Shokaku. OTL, they got near misses and their report came gambled. In here, both hit the carrier. First bomb explode on the bridge, killing Nagumo and his staff. Second one explodes deep within the ship, destroying or damaging the engines and cause the carrier to stop. No matter if it is scuttled or send to Japan, I think it means one carrier less on Santa Cruz. Which should be enough to save Hornet.
Are either of those options possible or probable? I would be interested in your opinions.
Good day or night, everyone.
One of the first lessons Lexington and Saratoga taught was that not only elevator size, but elevator speed are very important. As completed
the after elevator worked fine, but as aircraft grew it became less useful. In Saratoga late-war, it was permanently left it the 'up' position, and she finished her service life as a single-elevator carrier. Replacing the after elevator should be part of a modernization.
The forward elevator was large enough, but it could have been faster as well.
An alternative to holing the flight deck for a third elevator would be the small lift with an outrigger that was used mounted on the side of the hangar in Wasp. A close up can be see here
Warships that should never been built?
I tried SO hard not to have to pore more venom out on the Alaska Class, but no... The Alaska's were not fine ships. They had an exceptional 12 inch gun, possibly one of the best naval rifles every designed. Unfortunately those 12" guns were located on a battleship size hull (808 feet long, 91...www.alternatehistory.com
Such a fit would be light-weight but still very useful.
They did get their flight decks widened forward before the war compare the line drawing above with this earlierone
I'm not sure you could make the flight deck much wider without sponsons, and I don't recall the USN using sponsons that large this early.
my thoughts,m
From what I understand by reading Barrett Tillman's book on Enterprise. Saratoga's elevator cycle was about 20 (give or take) seconds slower than on Enterprise. So having the same 44x48 ft elevator on her would speed up her cycling time to that of the newer carriers.
As for fitting the Lexington-Class with a deck-edge outrigger elevator instead of a third full-size one. It does have merit as it would not slow down flight ops or take time having to cut an extra hole in the flight deck for it. The downside is fitting it to the side of the hull and it may affect the ship's center of gravity. Though i suspect, not by much.
The reason i bring up a hypothetical Lexington refit (I will need to do a separate thread for it later). Is by the time Yorktown and Enterprise are commissioned, they are 10 years old and a fair bit of technology has either been implemented or improved. Plus the rebuilds of Akagi and Kaga, may spook the USN in trying to rebuild them to keep them competitive with their IJN counterparts.
By the time the war ended, Saratoga was an old ship. Her hull had been around since the end of World War 1 and she had been in service since 1927. Plus with nearly 2 dozen Essex-Class Carriers and the Midways. There was just no need to keep them around. Even though i think they could have handled Jets with a decent rebuild.
I read that Task Force 16 (Enterprise and Hornet) was first spotted. But the IJN only got a confirmed bearing on Task Force 17 (Yorktown). The problem with Hornet being targeted is not that she would get hit (she will). Is that she wasn't alone, as she and Enterprise were part of the same Task Force. Which had more fighters and a heavier escorting screen, including the USS Atlanta. Also i suspect both the Dive Bomber and torpedo bomber pilots would split their attack on her and Enterprise. This means that the Battle of Midway would be a close victory with 4 Japanese carriers sunk, 2 US carriers damaged, and all three Yorktowns (assuming Submarine Ex Machina doesn't happen). Needing an extensive stay in the yard. Which could push back the Guadalcanal Campaign till later in 42 if not the start of 43.
If the two 500lb bombs had hit Shokaku and one hits Nagumo. It means Ozawa is moved in to take command and suddenly the Guadalcanal Campaign is both easier and harder. As Ozawa was an advocate of Air power in the IJN and had experience as 1st Carrier Division's Commander in 1939. In fact, he had the idea that the carriers were to train and fight together. But was moved aside (with great reluctance by Yamamoto) in favour of the more senior Nagumo.
Saying that though, at the time of Scouting 5's attack on Shokaku at Eastern Solomon's. She was launching her first strike against Enterprise. If a 500lb bomb hits the flight deck and goes off in the hangar deck. Not only does it leave a hole in the flight deck. But slows down flight operations, possibly reducing the strike's potency against Enterprise and she most likely be less damaged compared to what happened in real life. If the hits are further back, then it sets off amongst parked, armed and fueld aircraft which is a massive fire hazard. Shokaku would have one advantage over her seniors and that's the aircraft being on the flight deck can be tossed overboard. But the fires would act as a beacon to Fletcher's haphazard air strike. Possibly causing further damage and maybe sinking her.
1) There appears to be some lack of precision of my part, sorry. 18 D3A from the first wave hit Yorktown as OTL. It's only 10 Kate's commanded by Lt. Tomonaga that stumble upon TF16 and attack Hornet (If I may, where did you found those dive bombers? Kate's are torpedo bombers). I have doubt about those 10 Kate's being able to hit Hornet, considering TF16 have a large amount of Wildcats and USS Atlanta, but I can't rule it out. Still, I doubt that a torpedo or two that would hit Hornet would delay Guadalcanal. Saratoga, Enterprise and Wasp are still operational, and were strong enough to support the operation initially. And if damaged Yorktown was patched in 3 days, damaged Hornet could be patched in time for Santa Cruz, at least.
2) Those two issues I would take on together. If the first bomb kills Nagumo and his staff, command structure on Shokaku would be disrupted. And if the second bomb exploded in hangar as you proposed, then saving the ship would be very difficult with the inferno everywhere. Because on Midway all Japanese carriers were lost mostly because of lack of damage control and high temperatures from the inferno, which means Shokaku may be lost due to those issues as well as disruption of command. Sinking of Shokaku means less planes at Santa Cruz, with only Zuiho, Junyo and Zuikaku participating in the battle. This means Hornet is less damaged, especially if Yorktown is participating in the battle. Even if Ozawa is in command, there could be 3 carriers vs 1 carrier and 2 light carriers, with more planes on the American side. These odds are slighty in American favor now.
But what I proposed was that the second bomb knocks out carriers engines, causing the carrier to stop. Launch would be aborted as carrier would be unable to move. Extensive repairs would be needed at the very least to repair the engines, right? I don't think that Shokaku would be ready at Santa Cruz, which means situation above apply once more. Surely it's enough to save all three Yorktown's?
That's ok. Another possibility is that both strikes go for all 3 carriers. But to your point, 10x B5Ns against Task Force 16's CAP and escorts, not to mention the AA Batteries from Enterprise and Hornet. It would create an incredible fight, and I think Kate was more fragile than the Devastator. But it's also faster, the Type 91 Torpedo works and they have a decent fighter escort. So i suspect that a few may reach the drop point. With the possibility of 1 or 2 hits to Hornet, there are no survivors on the Japanese side. Also, the Yorktown-CLass did have a major weakness, which led to the loss of Yorktown herself and Hornet. The boiler and engine rooms were right next to each other instead of alternating. This made them extremely vulnerable to power loss in a torpedo attack. Depending on where the torpedo hits, Hornet (assuming she can be towed back to Pearl). Would be in the yards for about 3-4 months. Mainly because Torpedo damage takes longer to repair than a 500lb to the flight deck. Also, Yorktown's repairs at Pearl were temporary. Had she survived the battle, she would be sent to Puget Sound or Mare Island for more permanent repairs and an overhaul. Which may last 3 or so months. If she is sent there before the end of June. She can be ready in time for the Battle of Santa Cruz.
I should amend that by the time of the Guadalcanal Campaign. The IJN had done away with refuelling and rearming their aircraft on the hangar deck and instead did it on the flight deck. If one of the bombs had landed on the flight deck whilst she was in the middle of launching her strike. It would cause an inferno similar to what happened to Franklin in 1945. There is a lot of fire and damage, but everything can be dumped overboard and doused in foam. But Shokaku would be out of action for most of, if not the remainder of 1942, because of the damage. Assuming the giant column of flames doesn't act as a beacon for the strike, Fletcher sent from Enterprise and Saratoga. If Nagumo is killed and Ozawa takes command. He may be more cautious of the PBYs operating in the Santa Cruz Islands and other bases. So he may try to sneak around them and attack Guadalcanal or flank the US Carriers. Which could make Santa Cruz even bloodier for the Marines on Guadalcanal and possibly have another carrier battle amongst the night actions of November 13-15.
The problem with your proposal is that the Shokaku-Class had extensive armour under the flight deck. Shokaku at the Coral Sea and Santa Cruz took 1000-lb bombs, and the worst they did was smash up the flight and hangar decks and cause fires. They did not cause any mechanical damage compared to what happened to Soryu at Midway. 2x 500lb bombs are not going to do any better.
Oh, okay, I forgot about the armour under the flight deck. Then the only way to actually disable Shokaku appears to be the hit in the flight deck. The inferno disables Shokaku, then does that mean that Zuikaku, Junyo and Zuiho, even with Ozawa in command, can still sink any of the three Yorktowns at Santa Cruz? Americans would have more planes, while Ozawa would be, as you said, more cautious and careful. On the other hand, all three US carriers would have mostly newbies and very few veterans. This battle would be then fought, but even with those disadvantages I reckon all Yorktowns should survive, if only because no planes and pilots from Shokaku means less chance to permanently knock out any of the three carriers?