I agree, when I read originally I wondered why Murdoch did not, at least have below waterline watertight doors shut. Doors in damaged compartment can spring but it, retain 80% watertightness, pumps in other compartments should hold. IIRC Titanic did not have a centerline bulkhead, so she should, as OTL, not take a severe list but flood the compartments the full width of the ship.
Disaster Averted (Titanic Lives) On Hiatus
- Thread starter PrinceHenry_of_Rheinsberg
- Start date
I agree, when I read originally I wondered why Murdoch did not, at least have below waterline watertight doors shut. Doors in damaged compartment can spring but it, retain 80% watertightness, pumps in other compartments should hold. IIRC Titanic did not have a centerline bulkhead, so she should, as OTL, not take a severe list but flood the compartments the full width of the ship.
Were this ASB and not Alternate History Discussion: After 1900 a convenient Iceberg may have shown up for the U-Boat to strike.
Maybe next time.
Maybe next time.
The Great War
The Great War
As U-20 watched on as the wounded giant staggered on ahead, the crew onboard listened intently as their captain silently watched. The Cheers had been replaced by a feeling of anxiety and baited breath as the crew awaited for the fate of their prey. However, Schwieger said nothing for the next agonizing minutes, instead letting the smile on his face disappear as he focused his sight on the mammoth liner which seemed to have weathered the blow. Disappointed with this realization from his view, Schwieger moved away and turned to his second in command. “Let us go. She will live.” It was a bitter feeling, however the crew didn’t fuss and moved to get their craft away and safely back to Germany. No doubt, Royal Navy units were likely on their way to Titanic’s rescue.
Onboard, Titanic’s list had stalled a few degrees. Noticeable as it was, the ship had held together. The pumps kept up, whilst her watertight doors kept the water at bay. As he reduced speed, Titanic began moving closer to the shore, whereupon her distress calls had been picked up from a nearby wireless station. Transmitting the distance and location the ship was at, runners on the shore alongside messages sent from the wireless station immediately transmitted Titanic’s plight. Before long, the HMS Juno picked up the call and began making steam and heading towards Titanic’s location. Having originally been dispatched previously to the Persian gulf as part of the engagement at Bushire, Juno was on her return voyage when she received the distress call whilst on her trip to Queenstown, Ireland.
After getting warnings of submarine activities in the waters around Ireland and the rest off the British Isles, the ship took some precautions before receiving the distress signals and changed course to come to Titanic’s aid.
Near the evening of May 7-8, Titanic completed her journey, albeit whilst being late, but triumphant as her passengers disembarked and she was escorted back to Harland and Wolf to start repairs. Unfortunately, this would be Titanic’s last voyage for the rest of the year as a commercial liner, as the threat of U-Boats simply scared off many potential passengers leading to reduced bookings for trips across the Atlantic. In June, Titanic found herself in Belfast with the original belief being she would be laid up until the Wars end, however she was instead requisitioned by the Admiralty who choose her to serve the role as a troop transport ship, whilst her former rivals in the Cunard Liners Lusitania, Mauretania and Aquitania would become troop transport and a hospital ship (Aquitania) respectively.
Titanic would be stripped of her peacetime fittings and was instead armed with 12-pounder and 4.7-inch guns, and was capable of transporting 6,000 troops as like her sister, Olympic. In September, 1915, Titanic (now designated: HMT; Hired Military Transport), left Liverpool carrying just under 6,000 troops to Mudros, Greece for the Gallipoli Campaign. Under command now of Captain Charles Lightoller, Titanic and Olympic would partake in troop voyages for the following months on the lead up to and during the Dardanelles campaign.
However, as losses would only grow and the campaign stalled, Titanic was once more ordered by the Admiralty, but this time to serve as a hospital ship, alongside Gigantic and Aquitania, in order to treat the wounded and get them back to safety. Now repainted from the previous war dark grays with black funnels, to now white with buff funnels and large medical cross emblems that surrounded the vessel. By 1916, the Gallipoli Campaign was abandoned, however not until the “Titanic” trio of White Star Liners suffered another incident when Gigantic, the largest of the Olympic class and White Star Line’s largest liner yet built, struck a naval mine and beached herself in the Aegean Sea in November, 1916.
In the aftermath, Titanic, Olympic and Gigantic would continue performing their respective roles until the two were chartered by the Canadian government to transport troops from Halifax, Nova Scotia, to Britain.
(Note: Yes, I changed the history in having Britannic/Gigantic live. Maybe since it was too much like its original fate, or was a underwhelming end to a ship that had yet to enter the spotlight in this TL. So I choose to change timeline again, as a fair assumption could be made that with how much has changed thus far, its possible Gigantic could avoid her original fate either by chance or completely avoid it by other means.)
As U-20 watched on as the wounded giant staggered on ahead, the crew onboard listened intently as their captain silently watched. The Cheers had been replaced by a feeling of anxiety and baited breath as the crew awaited for the fate of their prey. However, Schwieger said nothing for the next agonizing minutes, instead letting the smile on his face disappear as he focused his sight on the mammoth liner which seemed to have weathered the blow. Disappointed with this realization from his view, Schwieger moved away and turned to his second in command. “Let us go. She will live.” It was a bitter feeling, however the crew didn’t fuss and moved to get their craft away and safely back to Germany. No doubt, Royal Navy units were likely on their way to Titanic’s rescue.
Onboard, Titanic’s list had stalled a few degrees. Noticeable as it was, the ship had held together. The pumps kept up, whilst her watertight doors kept the water at bay. As he reduced speed, Titanic began moving closer to the shore, whereupon her distress calls had been picked up from a nearby wireless station. Transmitting the distance and location the ship was at, runners on the shore alongside messages sent from the wireless station immediately transmitted Titanic’s plight. Before long, the HMS Juno picked up the call and began making steam and heading towards Titanic’s location. Having originally been dispatched previously to the Persian gulf as part of the engagement at Bushire, Juno was on her return voyage when she received the distress call whilst on her trip to Queenstown, Ireland.
After getting warnings of submarine activities in the waters around Ireland and the rest off the British Isles, the ship took some precautions before receiving the distress signals and changed course to come to Titanic’s aid.
Near the evening of May 7-8, Titanic completed her journey, albeit whilst being late, but triumphant as her passengers disembarked and she was escorted back to Harland and Wolf to start repairs. Unfortunately, this would be Titanic’s last voyage for the rest of the year as a commercial liner, as the threat of U-Boats simply scared off many potential passengers leading to reduced bookings for trips across the Atlantic. In June, Titanic found herself in Belfast with the original belief being she would be laid up until the Wars end, however she was instead requisitioned by the Admiralty who choose her to serve the role as a troop transport ship, whilst her former rivals in the Cunard Liners Lusitania, Mauretania and Aquitania would become troop transport and a hospital ship (Aquitania) respectively.
Titanic would be stripped of her peacetime fittings and was instead armed with 12-pounder and 4.7-inch guns, and was capable of transporting 6,000 troops as like her sister, Olympic. In September, 1915, Titanic (now designated: HMT; Hired Military Transport), left Liverpool carrying just under 6,000 troops to Mudros, Greece for the Gallipoli Campaign. Under command now of Captain Charles Lightoller, Titanic and Olympic would partake in troop voyages for the following months on the lead up to and during the Dardanelles campaign.
However, as losses would only grow and the campaign stalled, Titanic was once more ordered by the Admiralty, but this time to serve as a hospital ship, alongside Gigantic and Aquitania, in order to treat the wounded and get them back to safety. Now repainted from the previous war dark grays with black funnels, to now white with buff funnels and large medical cross emblems that surrounded the vessel. By 1916, the Gallipoli Campaign was abandoned, however not until the “Titanic” trio of White Star Liners suffered another incident when Gigantic, the largest of the Olympic class and White Star Line’s largest liner yet built, struck a naval mine and beached herself in the Aegean Sea in November, 1916.
In the aftermath, Titanic, Olympic and Gigantic would continue performing their respective roles until the two were chartered by the Canadian government to transport troops from Halifax, Nova Scotia, to Britain.
(Note: Yes, I changed the history in having Britannic/Gigantic live. Maybe since it was too much like its original fate, or was a underwhelming end to a ship that had yet to enter the spotlight in this TL. So I choose to change timeline again, as a fair assumption could be made that with how much has changed thus far, its possible Gigantic could avoid her original fate either by chance or completely avoid it by other means.)
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Am dissapointed Gigantic went down exactly like OTL. I would have hoped changes in design and operating procedure after Titanic’s near loss x2 would have allowed Gigantic to survive, even if beached.
I would have been nice to have White Star have their functioning trio into the 20’s esp since Cunard have their ships.
I would have been nice to have White Star have their functioning trio into the 20’s esp since Cunard have their ships.
RIP Britannic/Gigantic, unfortunate we won't see all three go into the postwar period. But Titanic and Olympic together as troop transports is nice to see
"Over There!" (1914-1915)
"Over There!"
(1914-1915)
The President sat behind the resolute desk, his eyes weary as he silently looked over a series of papers detailing all sorts of legislation, affairs of state, and other such documents any commander and chief were expected to see whilst in office. Ever since assuming office despite a three-way campaign, becoming the most successful third party run yet in history, he had taken the mantle from his former friend, and conservative firebrand in disguise, William Howard Taft. Then there was former Democratic nominee, Speaker of the House, Champ Clark. With the split of the Republican Party between its Conservative and Progressive Wings… It seemed like it would be a Democrat triumph-
Until Clark was endorsed by the Corrupt New York Machine, and lost himself support from Democratic Parties own Progressive Wing. Despite some reservations between himself and Roosevelt, William Jennings Bryan was nevertheless unwilling to support what he along with many Progressives and the common folk saw as a corrupt Speaker attempting to become President. It wasn’t helped when the press caught wind of this split within the Democratic Party, and the walk-out staged by Bryan during the Democratic Convention, which was seen as a clear objection to Clark’s nomination.
This rise of the Progressive Party, with TR himself along with Johnson, and Bryan to a lesser extent, worked hard to deliver their message and idea of “New Nationalism” to the wider nation as a whole. Ultimately, “New Nationalism” would seem to be the right course as Roosevelt found himself the first President to win three terms of office, and second President to run for a non-consecutive term and win.No doubt there was much outrage and bitterness due to the breaking of tradition, with some amongst the conservative wings and even some progressive decrying him as some sorta dictator. Like hell he was! He was merely fulfilling his duty to the people, the citizens of this country! Taft failed at that, choosing big-business and not trying to distinguish between “good” and “bad” trusts. The damn fool was clearly not interested in following him and ultimately lost his chance for a second term. Good riddance, at least Roosevelt thought.
The two men would never speak with each other again. Not that Roosevelt or Taft were eager, since one considered the other a backstabber in some form. Instead, Roosevelt began to focus on going about establishing his “New Nationalism” on the national stage. Surprisingly, Clark’s loss ultimately didn’t leave the man bitter, as he was willing to at least aid the incoming President in passing his progressive agenda. At least until the Democrats lost many seats to the Republicans and some Progressives candidates, which saw Clark lose his position of speaker…
After some resistance, Roosevelt oversaw the passing of the first of his major pieces of his platform, social insurance. Despite strong opposition from Conservatives, this legislation was passed alongside regulations on the economy, and a reduction in the workday to just eight-hours. Progressive support now seemed firmly behind the President…
Until the Great War began.
Despite at first being on the same page, Teddy found himself at odds with his Vice President, Johnson, over potential preparations for and entry into the Great War. Even the idea of brokering a peace deal didn’t seem to phase the Californian, and soon TR and Johnson began to feud on the direction the country and party were going. Removing his glasses for a moment to rub the bridge of his nose, the stresses of the Presidency and potential Party split were expected to cause that. Even still, Roosevelt felt an obligation to at least do something! American lives were at risk! The United States had a right to trade as it saw fit, regardless of whatever war was happening! But this embargo on Europe from Britain, and act of unrestricted-submarine warfare from the Germans, was not making things easier.
No major incidents had yet happened to provoke enough of a response, less one count the torpedoing of a British built, American owned liner in 1915, RMS Titanic. But she had otherwise survived and made it to port without further difficulty. Instead, Mexico had become a prime focus along with the rest of Latin America, which occupied the Bull Moose up until now. The bandit Pancho Villa had given the Americans the slip for sometime now, and relations between the US and Mexico had cooled to an extent. Still, it could be worse.
Putting his glasses back on, Roosevelt once again began reading a current document recently placed on his desk when he was interrupted by a member of his cabinet, and friend, Leonard Wood. “President?” “Wood?” The two men had served together previously as a part of the ‘rough-riders’ and now found themselves working together once more, despite the letters' reservations over high office. “The Jerry’s are still at it still with unrestricted submarine warfare.” TR grumbled, frustrated with this damn policy under the German Empire. That damn Kaiser wasn’t making US neutrality easier, not that Roosevelt was especially interested in peace… Germany was a rebel rouser, and serious threat, to the balance of power. Especially if it won this war and secured itself new territories in the Americas…
“Either they learn not to put our people in harm's way, or we’re gonna be rough ridden’ over the Kaiser!”
After the next few days, the President had a new speech drafted which publicly demanded the end of unrestricted submarine warfare and freedom of the seas from potential German and British interference. The latter was added in order to appease some isolationists, who saw US opinion turn on Germany and feared this rebuke would push the US to side with the Entente and ultimately join the war. Whilst Roosevelt knew Britain would likely still continue with its own blockade and efforts, Germany would at least heed the threat. With his closing statement boiling down to; “our Freedom’s of commerce, trade and liberty shall no longer be infringed anymore less those who threaten them are calling for a war, the US will remain uninvolved yet ready if the need arise to defend our rights for neutrality!” Afterwards, the President left whilst the US press ran stories, continuing to detail the “apparent” and appalling actions done by the Germans in Belgium as based on what news came back from the front.
The Bull Moose, like some within his cabinet and even the general public could see the winds shift, and knew US neutrality may not be for much longer. After all, Germany was a serious force in the world, capable of matching Britain in Europe, but America in the Caribbean. And TR wasn’t one to stay out of the Arena for long once the blood began to flow.
After all, victory belongs to the man in the arena…
(1914-1915)
The President sat behind the resolute desk, his eyes weary as he silently looked over a series of papers detailing all sorts of legislation, affairs of state, and other such documents any commander and chief were expected to see whilst in office. Ever since assuming office despite a three-way campaign, becoming the most successful third party run yet in history, he had taken the mantle from his former friend, and conservative firebrand in disguise, William Howard Taft. Then there was former Democratic nominee, Speaker of the House, Champ Clark. With the split of the Republican Party between its Conservative and Progressive Wings… It seemed like it would be a Democrat triumph-
Until Clark was endorsed by the Corrupt New York Machine, and lost himself support from Democratic Parties own Progressive Wing. Despite some reservations between himself and Roosevelt, William Jennings Bryan was nevertheless unwilling to support what he along with many Progressives and the common folk saw as a corrupt Speaker attempting to become President. It wasn’t helped when the press caught wind of this split within the Democratic Party, and the walk-out staged by Bryan during the Democratic Convention, which was seen as a clear objection to Clark’s nomination.
This rise of the Progressive Party, with TR himself along with Johnson, and Bryan to a lesser extent, worked hard to deliver their message and idea of “New Nationalism” to the wider nation as a whole. Ultimately, “New Nationalism” would seem to be the right course as Roosevelt found himself the first President to win three terms of office, and second President to run for a non-consecutive term and win.No doubt there was much outrage and bitterness due to the breaking of tradition, with some amongst the conservative wings and even some progressive decrying him as some sorta dictator. Like hell he was! He was merely fulfilling his duty to the people, the citizens of this country! Taft failed at that, choosing big-business and not trying to distinguish between “good” and “bad” trusts. The damn fool was clearly not interested in following him and ultimately lost his chance for a second term. Good riddance, at least Roosevelt thought.
The two men would never speak with each other again. Not that Roosevelt or Taft were eager, since one considered the other a backstabber in some form. Instead, Roosevelt began to focus on going about establishing his “New Nationalism” on the national stage. Surprisingly, Clark’s loss ultimately didn’t leave the man bitter, as he was willing to at least aid the incoming President in passing his progressive agenda. At least until the Democrats lost many seats to the Republicans and some Progressives candidates, which saw Clark lose his position of speaker…
After some resistance, Roosevelt oversaw the passing of the first of his major pieces of his platform, social insurance. Despite strong opposition from Conservatives, this legislation was passed alongside regulations on the economy, and a reduction in the workday to just eight-hours. Progressive support now seemed firmly behind the President…
Until the Great War began.
Despite at first being on the same page, Teddy found himself at odds with his Vice President, Johnson, over potential preparations for and entry into the Great War. Even the idea of brokering a peace deal didn’t seem to phase the Californian, and soon TR and Johnson began to feud on the direction the country and party were going. Removing his glasses for a moment to rub the bridge of his nose, the stresses of the Presidency and potential Party split were expected to cause that. Even still, Roosevelt felt an obligation to at least do something! American lives were at risk! The United States had a right to trade as it saw fit, regardless of whatever war was happening! But this embargo on Europe from Britain, and act of unrestricted-submarine warfare from the Germans, was not making things easier.
No major incidents had yet happened to provoke enough of a response, less one count the torpedoing of a British built, American owned liner in 1915, RMS Titanic. But she had otherwise survived and made it to port without further difficulty. Instead, Mexico had become a prime focus along with the rest of Latin America, which occupied the Bull Moose up until now. The bandit Pancho Villa had given the Americans the slip for sometime now, and relations between the US and Mexico had cooled to an extent. Still, it could be worse.
Putting his glasses back on, Roosevelt once again began reading a current document recently placed on his desk when he was interrupted by a member of his cabinet, and friend, Leonard Wood. “President?” “Wood?” The two men had served together previously as a part of the ‘rough-riders’ and now found themselves working together once more, despite the letters' reservations over high office. “The Jerry’s are still at it still with unrestricted submarine warfare.” TR grumbled, frustrated with this damn policy under the German Empire. That damn Kaiser wasn’t making US neutrality easier, not that Roosevelt was especially interested in peace… Germany was a rebel rouser, and serious threat, to the balance of power. Especially if it won this war and secured itself new territories in the Americas…
“Either they learn not to put our people in harm's way, or we’re gonna be rough ridden’ over the Kaiser!”
After the next few days, the President had a new speech drafted which publicly demanded the end of unrestricted submarine warfare and freedom of the seas from potential German and British interference. The latter was added in order to appease some isolationists, who saw US opinion turn on Germany and feared this rebuke would push the US to side with the Entente and ultimately join the war. Whilst Roosevelt knew Britain would likely still continue with its own blockade and efforts, Germany would at least heed the threat. With his closing statement boiling down to; “our Freedom’s of commerce, trade and liberty shall no longer be infringed anymore less those who threaten them are calling for a war, the US will remain uninvolved yet ready if the need arise to defend our rights for neutrality!” Afterwards, the President left whilst the US press ran stories, continuing to detail the “apparent” and appalling actions done by the Germans in Belgium as based on what news came back from the front.
The Bull Moose, like some within his cabinet and even the general public could see the winds shift, and knew US neutrality may not be for much longer. After all, Germany was a serious force in the world, capable of matching Britain in Europe, but America in the Caribbean. And TR wasn’t one to stay out of the Arena for long once the blood began to flow.
After all, victory belongs to the man in the arena…
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I am suprised a 1912 Roosevelt win has not been followed with quiet reforms and a build up of the American Army and Navy once WW1 broke out given it was in need of it.
It should not take as late as OTL for America to get invovled in WW1 this time with this President, even without Lusitania.
No Wilson is a very good thing for race relations and civil rights in the US also.
I see Gigantic beached herself now, thus she will be back, which is good, though I suspect it will be a while and thus White Star still get a German liner to compensate.
Actually perhaps the German liners goto Canadian Pacific Steamships instead of Cunard and White Star which would increase Atlantic competiton a lot.
It should not take as late as OTL for America to get invovled in WW1 this time with this President, even without Lusitania.
No Wilson is a very good thing for race relations and civil rights in the US also.
I see Gigantic beached herself now, thus she will be back, which is good, though I suspect it will be a while and thus White Star still get a German liner to compensate.
Actually perhaps the German liners goto Canadian Pacific Steamships instead of Cunard and White Star which would increase Atlantic competiton a lot.
I did leave it ambiguous in regards to legislation Roosevelt passed didn't I? I didn't want to get too focused on the domestic/political front in the US.
As for why its taking so long here, well, has to do with the fact Titanic didn't go down, though that doesn't mean US entry isn't going to happen in 1916. Plus, I have been considering adjusting the years this is all happening in.
Gigantic will likely be out for sometime, both being beached and needing repairs. However I don't think White Star will need a German liner to compensate, but your last two comments have gotten me thinking a bit.
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The Sinking of SS Cymric & USS Smith
The Sinking of SS Cymric & USS Smith
(April, 1916)
1915 would prove to be an eventful year, even after Roosevelt’s warning and growing US preparations for war. In the US, Naval Dockyards began the production of ships, whilst the army began recruitment. Uncle Sam, stone cold and serious with a stern expression on his face pointed at the reader of hundreds of posters printed for the rearmament effort, telling the young men of the nation to defend their homes, protect democracy and keep lady liberty safe. The turn out was slow at first, of course due to a desire to stay neutral among the public, but as the War dragged onwards and saw Germany sink a number of merchant ships, opinions were turning.
Tragedy came shortly in October, as per the new policy, the US Navy would provide an escort to any non combatant ships approaching the United States in a so called ‘neutral zone’ off the shorelines of the US. Among the escort ships included schooners, destroyers, among other light ships to patrol the waters around the US and be on the hunt for submarines, raiders and auxiliary cruisers. As a part of then President Roosevelt’s pledge to defend the United States' neutrality, the waters of the East and West Coast quickly became a safe haven for allied ships eager to avoid attacks by German vessels.
Of course, this policy had its gray area as was found, as ships were protected solely if they were seen as ‘non-combatant’ and carried passengers onboard. One such incident would occur that would put into question such a policy, and ultimately the course of the war. During her service, Cymric had originally been meant to serve both as a passenger liner and livestock carrier, only able to take onboard first class passengers. This was changed however, and she would find herself carrying both first and third class onboard once she was finally made ready. However, the life of an ocean liner was not to last for during the Boer War and now presently, the Great War, Cymric found herself pressed into service as a troop and cargo transport.
Whilst sailing without trouble early into the war, by late 1915, Cymric was entering into an unknown when the US established its “Neutral Zone” as a part of its policy of armed neutrality. Of course, non-combatant ships were allowed along with vessels carrying passengers. In April, 1916, Cymric herself would be in the center of controversy, alongside the US Destroyer Smith, the lead ship of the DD-17 “Smith Class”, as the White Star Liner completed her loading process in New York and prepared to sail for Liverpool with 122 people onboard. Among them, five or six passengers (records being sparse after the war make it unclear exactly how many). Whilst she was under way and approaching the edges of the American Neutral zone, the ship was sighted by a German U-Boat (sources are lost on exactly which one) when the submarine encountered the liner and moved in to attack. As per the policy of armed neutrality and ensuring the waters that surrounded the US were kept “non-combatant”, a escort of a single destroyer was provided both to ensure the Cymric safely left undisturbed and deal with any potential U-Boats, raiders or other hostile vessels and force them to leave, less they risk starting a battle and pulling the US into the war.
So it happened, as SS Cymric steamed at her highest speed of just 15 knots, she would be struck both forward of her bridge and just behind her funnel by two torpedoes. The ship's damage was so severe, water flooded her engine room and led to the drowning of much of the crew present. Witnessing this, her escort USS Smith moved to provide aid, with the U-Boat commander likely assuming the Destroyer had spotted them and was attempting a ram attack, launched one more torpedo which struck the destroyer's bow, blowing it off and causing the destroyer to begin sinking. In the end, out of the 112 people on Cymric, just 68 survived due to her rapid sinking. On USS Smith, out of a complement of 89 officers and crew, just 45 would manage to escape as she went down.
News was quick to reach the US, as a number of ships close by came to the aid of the survivors. However, despite an apology by the German embassy on behalf of the Empire for the violation of the US’s armed Neutrality Policy, and killing of American sailors, the public were outraged. Violence and discrimination against ethnic Germans living in the US sprang up, whilst demands for action were called on the President and Congress to avenge the Cymric and Smith. This, coupled with a number of other sinking's including that of a number of British hospital ships, served to push the public over the edge.
Thus once the President went to Congress to ask for war, the Congress was more (mostly) willing to accept.
(Image above of the US Congress in session as President Roosevelt announces the break in of official relations with the German Empire in May, 1916)
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Good chapter!
Violating US neutral space like that is going to really rile up the public.
Spotted a typo: “only able to take onboard fire class passengers.”
If one the U boat Commander had waiting a little longer he’d have got Cymric on its own…
Long term thinking- if America joins the war physically in 1916, the Germans are not as exhausted yet, but the time could turn quickly. If Germany collapses does that prevent the Revolution in Russia?
The Tsar isn’t gone, but he is on shaky ground, if Germany starts collapsing in 1916 the war is won. Feb Revolution might still happen, but the Provisional Govt would be in a much stronger position without the war.
One possibility is Germany makes a treaty with Russia once things start looking bad in the west. Possibly giving Poland freedom as a ‘buffer state‘? Russia might agree to this just to get the war done.
As for Austria, I am not sure what an early American arrival would do there, vis a vis Russia/Ukraine. They might pull out if Germany did?
Certainly with Roosevelt in charge the Middle East will go differently in the peace talks. Maybe the Ottoman Empire will survive?
Just some thoughts.
Violating US neutral space like that is going to really rile up the public.
Spotted a typo: “only able to take onboard fire class passengers.”
If one the U boat Commander had waiting a little longer he’d have got Cymric on its own…
Long term thinking- if America joins the war physically in 1916, the Germans are not as exhausted yet, but the time could turn quickly. If Germany collapses does that prevent the Revolution in Russia?
The Tsar isn’t gone, but he is on shaky ground, if Germany starts collapsing in 1916 the war is won. Feb Revolution might still happen, but the Provisional Govt would be in a much stronger position without the war.
One possibility is Germany makes a treaty with Russia once things start looking bad in the west. Possibly giving Poland freedom as a ‘buffer state‘? Russia might agree to this just to get the war done.
As for Austria, I am not sure what an early American arrival would do there, vis a vis Russia/Ukraine. They might pull out if Germany did?
Certainly with Roosevelt in charge the Middle East will go differently in the peace talks. Maybe the Ottoman Empire will survive?
Just some thoughts.
Thanks for spotting that typo, much appreciated.
That's what is gonna spark some controversy, as it will be debated after the fact if the SS Cymric was in the neutral zone, or had just left it.
Kinda similar to what occurred during the Falklands War with the General Belgrano.
As for what happens with Russia? Its up in the air for now, though considering how the public within Russia were feeling about the wars continuation, I would say another Revolution is still likely regardless.
Tides Turning
Tides Turning
(May-June 1916)
Once the announcement came, a sense of relief and hope came throughout the allied armies once news reached the rank and file that the Americans were joining the war on their side. Many had not expected such a sudden shift, assuming it was unlikely or impossible for the isolationist US to give up its neutral stance and join the conflict. But now it had come to pass, and already Allied leaders were eagerly looking forward to what this change in the balance of power would bring. As April entered into May, the Easter Rising in Ireland was swiftly crushed, which despite causing a stir with the Irish-Catholic population in the US, did nothing to stop the needed alliance between Washington and the Entente.
The effects on morale showed early on, as in May from the 15 until June, Austro-Hungarian offensive into Trentino was beaten back after Italian forces were galvanized by the News of US entry into the War. Even more dramatic, the Battle of Jutland, the big gun epic clash between two of the major navies of Europe in Germany and Britain, happened. Now with the US involved, the German high command knew it was no longer a question of if, but when, the Empire would be overwhelmed by the combined might of the US, France and Britain on the Western Front. With US ships now available, Britain could concentrate on her blockade even more, meaning Germany would be strangled quicker.
Unwilling to allow such a fate to befall them, the high-command would set its sights on a decisive battle that would turn the tide in the war before it was too late. Two formations, one a scouting cruiser force under command of Vice Admiral Franz Hipper, with the larger force under command of Reinhard Scheer. the plan was simple, it being part of a grander scheme to end the blockade on Germany, and would see a plan to lure then Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty’s battlecruiser squadrons into the path of the main German fleet. Out into the cold and frigid waters of the North Sea, the German fleet would be met not just by Sir David Beatty’s cruisers, but also the rest of the Royal Navy’s Grand Fleet, now concentrated and ready to defend the British isles and their vital shipping for the war effort.
Before leaving, the sailors aboard their ships would receive an unexpected visit from the Kaiser himself, who would press the importance of this battle to the outcome of the war and his expectations for the men who would be responsible in ensuring victory. With a final send off and gesture of good will, the Kaiser offered a final salute to the men as the High Seas Fleet prepared for its rondevu with destiny.
The battle itself would have a heavy price to pay, as whilst it became a British strategic triumph, one of the fleets finest was lost alongside the forces leader, Sir David Beatty’s Battlecruiser, HMS Lion would follow two other Battle Cruisers in the first stages of the battle, and be destroyed in an almost apocalyptic explosion caused by German shells piercing their turrets armor, and igniting the ships magazines. Lion, the lead ship and Beatty’s flagship, was destroyed after SMS Lutzow scored the fatal shot. Next would be HMS Indefatigable, as a mere 14 minutes after Lion’s destruction and the subsequent collapse of the British formation, was destroyed after SMS Von der Tann scored shell hits aft on the ship, detonating the “X” magazine. A follow up shell struck Indefatigable “A” turret forward, which led to the ship's destruction after she was ripped apart. HMS Queen Mary followed next, as she was struck by the combined salvo of Derfflinger and Seydiltz at once. The remaining force, once under command of Sir David Beatty, would soon encounter elements of the rest of the High Seas Fleet present and be forced north alongside the rest of the British forces immediately present.
Despite what appeared to be an early victory for the High Seas Fleet, the Royal Navy was close and under what remained of Beatty’s shattered force, lured Scheer and Hipper to Jellicoe. Ultimately, the battle between the High Seas Fleet and the Royal Navy would only cement Britain’s position as the dominant naval power, as Jellicoe’s forces were able to effectively enter formation and pound away at the German ships as they approached. The resulting night action would level the playing field, and lead to a number of close encounters, but the Germans would disengage and leave the British bloodied but triumphant.
As May moved into June, the Russian Empire sought to continue the war effort on behalf of the Entente and launch a major offensive to relieve pressure on France, who were in the midst of the bloody battle of Verdun. The Brusilov offensive would change the course of the war, relieving pressure on the Western Front, convince Romania to join on the side of the Entente, relieve pressure on the Italians and forever keep the Austro-Hungarian Empire from ever launching another offensive again.
In the Atlantic, the “big three” as they were known, Olympic, Titanic and Gigantic were all taken per order of the admiralty and once again repainted. However, not they would each serve as troop transport for the up and coming wave of thousands of newly trained US troops bound for Europe and elsewhere. Now armed with 6-inch guns and given a dazzle camouflage scheme to make observing her from afar more difficult, HMT Olympic would aid in the transport of Canadian troops from Halifax Harbor, whilst Titanic and Gigantic would work side by side carrying US troops from Norfolk, Virginia and New York.
(May-June 1916)
Once the announcement came, a sense of relief and hope came throughout the allied armies once news reached the rank and file that the Americans were joining the war on their side. Many had not expected such a sudden shift, assuming it was unlikely or impossible for the isolationist US to give up its neutral stance and join the conflict. But now it had come to pass, and already Allied leaders were eagerly looking forward to what this change in the balance of power would bring. As April entered into May, the Easter Rising in Ireland was swiftly crushed, which despite causing a stir with the Irish-Catholic population in the US, did nothing to stop the needed alliance between Washington and the Entente.
The effects on morale showed early on, as in May from the 15 until June, Austro-Hungarian offensive into Trentino was beaten back after Italian forces were galvanized by the News of US entry into the War. Even more dramatic, the Battle of Jutland, the big gun epic clash between two of the major navies of Europe in Germany and Britain, happened. Now with the US involved, the German high command knew it was no longer a question of if, but when, the Empire would be overwhelmed by the combined might of the US, France and Britain on the Western Front. With US ships now available, Britain could concentrate on her blockade even more, meaning Germany would be strangled quicker.
Unwilling to allow such a fate to befall them, the high-command would set its sights on a decisive battle that would turn the tide in the war before it was too late. Two formations, one a scouting cruiser force under command of Vice Admiral Franz Hipper, with the larger force under command of Reinhard Scheer. the plan was simple, it being part of a grander scheme to end the blockade on Germany, and would see a plan to lure then Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty’s battlecruiser squadrons into the path of the main German fleet. Out into the cold and frigid waters of the North Sea, the German fleet would be met not just by Sir David Beatty’s cruisers, but also the rest of the Royal Navy’s Grand Fleet, now concentrated and ready to defend the British isles and their vital shipping for the war effort.
Before leaving, the sailors aboard their ships would receive an unexpected visit from the Kaiser himself, who would press the importance of this battle to the outcome of the war and his expectations for the men who would be responsible in ensuring victory. With a final send off and gesture of good will, the Kaiser offered a final salute to the men as the High Seas Fleet prepared for its rondevu with destiny.
The battle itself would have a heavy price to pay, as whilst it became a British strategic triumph, one of the fleets finest was lost alongside the forces leader, Sir David Beatty’s Battlecruiser, HMS Lion would follow two other Battle Cruisers in the first stages of the battle, and be destroyed in an almost apocalyptic explosion caused by German shells piercing their turrets armor, and igniting the ships magazines. Lion, the lead ship and Beatty’s flagship, was destroyed after SMS Lutzow scored the fatal shot. Next would be HMS Indefatigable, as a mere 14 minutes after Lion’s destruction and the subsequent collapse of the British formation, was destroyed after SMS Von der Tann scored shell hits aft on the ship, detonating the “X” magazine. A follow up shell struck Indefatigable “A” turret forward, which led to the ship's destruction after she was ripped apart. HMS Queen Mary followed next, as she was struck by the combined salvo of Derfflinger and Seydiltz at once. The remaining force, once under command of Sir David Beatty, would soon encounter elements of the rest of the High Seas Fleet present and be forced north alongside the rest of the British forces immediately present.
Despite what appeared to be an early victory for the High Seas Fleet, the Royal Navy was close and under what remained of Beatty’s shattered force, lured Scheer and Hipper to Jellicoe. Ultimately, the battle between the High Seas Fleet and the Royal Navy would only cement Britain’s position as the dominant naval power, as Jellicoe’s forces were able to effectively enter formation and pound away at the German ships as they approached. The resulting night action would level the playing field, and lead to a number of close encounters, but the Germans would disengage and leave the British bloodied but triumphant.
As May moved into June, the Russian Empire sought to continue the war effort on behalf of the Entente and launch a major offensive to relieve pressure on France, who were in the midst of the bloody battle of Verdun. The Brusilov offensive would change the course of the war, relieving pressure on the Western Front, convince Romania to join on the side of the Entente, relieve pressure on the Italians and forever keep the Austro-Hungarian Empire from ever launching another offensive again.
In the Atlantic, the “big three” as they were known, Olympic, Titanic and Gigantic were all taken per order of the admiralty and once again repainted. However, not they would each serve as troop transport for the up and coming wave of thousands of newly trained US troops bound for Europe and elsewhere. Now armed with 6-inch guns and given a dazzle camouflage scheme to make observing her from afar more difficult, HMT Olympic would aid in the transport of Canadian troops from Halifax Harbor, whilst Titanic and Gigantic would work side by side carrying US troops from Norfolk, Virginia and New York.
So, did Jutland end up like OTL, or was it again a strategic British victory but a tactical draw?
It's a British victory, though more costly as the Germans were more determined to win and avoid the blockade from continuing. They made the British bleed, but ultimately it wasn't enough and the Royal Navy was triumphant.
So in terms of ships sunk/damaged and sailors lost, the British came out on top?
They still did, despite the losses suffered, the Royal Navy still had a numerical edge over their German counterparts. I can't get into specific numbers, but with how this battle goes down, the British lose substantially more (especially in the opening engagement) whilst the Germans suffer more losses later nearing the end.
Hello! This is my first time being here on this site (even though i've been a watcher for some years) and i just wanted to say how enjoyable the ride has been so far. It's great!
What i also want to say is how glad i am that Britannic/Gigantic's fate was changed. It truly was disappointing reading at first that she didn't survive, but now i am so happy that you did allow her a second chance!
Please forgive my poor english.
What i also want to say is how glad i am that Britannic/Gigantic's fate was changed. It truly was disappointing reading at first that she didn't survive, but now i am so happy that you did allow her a second chance!
Please forgive my poor english.
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I was trying to suggest that if the eastern war ends in 1916 with a deal, then the Oct revolution probably does not occur. You might still get a Feb due the economic fallout, but it’s if they have made a separate deal the Germans are not releasing Lenin as they need a stable Russia on their backs to try and deal with the West. Russia then stabilises under the Provisional Govt.
With a population relentless about the war, collapsed economy, failed military offensives, and Germany offering to give up seized lands I could see the Tsar taking a deal in mid/late 1916 just to get if over with.
There might not be a separate deal with Austria or Ottomans, which might be the easier places for Russia to gain, esp vs the Ottomans.