An earlier Chinese collapse(since another uprising is successful)? Meaning that when the Mongolians launch their war they have some Russian support (as the Russians see it as a way of partly restoring the influence they jad in 1905) and can use the various cliques' war to get what they want
Modern Mongolia - TL Research Thread
Not really about the thread itself but I'm really enjoying this collab chat, team!
Thoughts on the "change the post-Qing govt in China" approach?
Thoughts on the "change the post-Qing govt in China" approach?
I actually think keeping Sun Yat-sen around could be helpful, in fact, I think we need to very slightly change his influences and have him be even more popular in China. I think, if his policy of Five Races Under One Union was more focused on assimilation into Chinese identity (likely mostly Han identity in reality) and we have the Kuomintang either, keep Yuan Shikai on a shorter leash, or successfully overthrow him in a revolution, not only would the Chinese government be less supported by the Inner Mongolians, but we can create a more unstable China, like many other people in the thread have suggested. Although, if they are more successful, the KMT might have the power to create an even more unified China, which would of course be an issue for the Mongolians.
Just make them more racist, it's not unimaginable that due to hate of the Manchus they also come to hate the Mongolians (especially as the Qing were friendly with them).
I would have to politely disagree on this one. I think that the Five Races, One China policy was really a way to try and generate loyalty amongst the peripheral minorities specifically to prevent them from seeking independence from China. The Five Races thing is by definition anti-assimilationist. Whereas the other, more Han-centric groups are basically saying "You're going to be Chinese. You're going to do like we do, abandon your traditions, OR ELSE". The unstable China thing also gives us another problem: If China is so weak and internally-divided to not be able to put pressure on the Inner Mongolians, why should the Inner Mongolians seek union with Outer Mongolia. They could just say "f**k the Khalkha, we do as we please" and just govern themselves.
Only on this site could you make that joke and have someone immediately get it. Gotta love it.
Not gonna lie, this just made me think of the South Park "Damn Mongolians" scene. But in all seriousness yeah, I think this is the simplest way to get the pan-Mongolist outcome.
I may have worded it poorly but, I would say, there were aspects of the Five Races Under One Union idea that were assimilationist. While of course, it was an ideal for racial harmony between all races, there were ideas, of course not backed by all supporters of the idea but not insignificant by any means, that believed Five Races Under One Union meant, all of the Five Races could be Chinese. Chinese didn't explicitly mean Han, especially in the republican movement. Many saw the goal as creating a China where all Five Races were Chinese. This was, as I understand, how they justified the territorial succession from the Qing, claiming all of China rather than just the Han of China Proper.
If the aspects of integration into a greater Chinese identity is prioritised over just bringing all of the minorities into the state, then I can see the Inner Mongolians feeling more threatened than in OTL where the Five Races would all just exist within the Union. Basically OTL RoC but with further sinicization, not sure if this would entail less Han supremacism, with people supported a more egalitarian Chinese identity, or more, with making all of the Five Races "Chinese" meaning making them Han.
I feel like this is a very nuanced understanding of the Five Races One Union concept that is likely to be lost on the majority of Chinese and Mongolian people, ITTL. Like you said, the Five Races One Union policy was intended to justify the maintenance of the Qing borders for the new Chinese state. That doesn't to me say anything about the actual desire of the post-Qing Chinese government to actually integrate these peoples. Seems instead like a rather cynical land grab (to me). What kind of assimilationist moves do you think would still be implemented by Sun Yat-sen, if you're insistent on him being the right "man for the job". I just think changing the leadership would give us more wiggle room to create an opportunity for a united Mongolia, but its your TL, so your call.
To summarise my point, if being Chinese =/= being Han, then what are the assimilation points? Kinda sounds like you're saying the Mongolians would be worried about being assimilated, by a group that says "you're Chinese even though you aren't Han".
I suppose that simply taking away feudal rights might be enough to get the Inner Mongol nobility to push against them? But like you said, the KMT historically boosted them all up a rank. How would we avoid that?
okay so I've just found out about a Mongolian partisan named Damdiny Sodnomdarjaa.
Okay so he was born in Setsen Khan province in 1895 on the estate of the nobleman Ulzii and was a herder up until 1912 when the Setsen Khan raised his thousand man army. After other men from the county were conscripted for this army Sodnomdarjaa requested to join them, which he did. He heads to the capital in 1913, then is selected for the officers course, which he graduated in 1914. In 1915 he fights against Bavuujav's bandit forces, and then after that ends up getting married to a young woman named Deleg.
Then in 1920 he sees Chinese troops in Mongolia and heads to the capital trying to find Sukhbaatar, something he fails to do, at which point he heads back and joins Mongolian troops under Dugar. He fights for Sternberg for the next few months and after fighting in Inner Mongolia for a while he ends up at the capital and hears about the red's advancing in Mongolia. All this time I'll note, he's still been trying to meet Sukhbaatar to figure out whats going on. He ends up delivering some letters back and forth for Dugar.
In 1922, after the revolution, (he's met Sukhbaatar a couple times by this point), Sukhbaatar appoints him to a job in Khovd. At this position he intercepts and captures a White Army officer fleeing to Xinjiang, Alexandrov, and arrests him. After this, he heads to the capital to tell Khatanbaatar Magsarjav and Sukhbaatar about the arrest, and then, after Sukhbaatar gives him a new german rifle, he delivers a letter back to Khovd. At Khovd, he's given a new mission, under the chief of police Baldandorj, they're sent to kill Dambiijantsan, aka Ja Lama.
He is part of the assassination of Ja Lama and the capture of his castle in the Gobi. Supplies and livestock are seized, hostages are freed, and after years of living as a bandit and dictator in the Gobi, Ja Lama is killed and beheaded by Baldandorj's men.
Damdiny Sodnomdarjaa seems to have lived one of the most interesting lives possible at the era and I'm almost 100% sure this is a fully accurate and real account from a collection of accounts of Mongolian partisans who won service medals for their actions. Either way, super interesting, thought I'd share this here for y'all!
Okay so he was born in Setsen Khan province in 1895 on the estate of the nobleman Ulzii and was a herder up until 1912 when the Setsen Khan raised his thousand man army. After other men from the county were conscripted for this army Sodnomdarjaa requested to join them, which he did. He heads to the capital in 1913, then is selected for the officers course, which he graduated in 1914. In 1915 he fights against Bavuujav's bandit forces, and then after that ends up getting married to a young woman named Deleg.
Then in 1920 he sees Chinese troops in Mongolia and heads to the capital trying to find Sukhbaatar, something he fails to do, at which point he heads back and joins Mongolian troops under Dugar. He fights for Sternberg for the next few months and after fighting in Inner Mongolia for a while he ends up at the capital and hears about the red's advancing in Mongolia. All this time I'll note, he's still been trying to meet Sukhbaatar to figure out whats going on. He ends up delivering some letters back and forth for Dugar.
In 1922, after the revolution, (he's met Sukhbaatar a couple times by this point), Sukhbaatar appoints him to a job in Khovd. At this position he intercepts and captures a White Army officer fleeing to Xinjiang, Alexandrov, and arrests him. After this, he heads to the capital to tell Khatanbaatar Magsarjav and Sukhbaatar about the arrest, and then, after Sukhbaatar gives him a new german rifle, he delivers a letter back to Khovd. At Khovd, he's given a new mission, under the chief of police Baldandorj, they're sent to kill Dambiijantsan, aka Ja Lama.
He is part of the assassination of Ja Lama and the capture of his castle in the Gobi. Supplies and livestock are seized, hostages are freed, and after years of living as a bandit and dictator in the Gobi, Ja Lama is killed and beheaded by Baldandorj's men.
Damdiny Sodnomdarjaa seems to have lived one of the most interesting lives possible at the era and I'm almost 100% sure this is a fully accurate and real account from a collection of accounts of Mongolian partisans who won service medals for their actions. Either way, super interesting, thought I'd share this here for y'all!
He was born at a place called Yanzai at the Delgermunh Mount in Noble Ulzii’s estate of Sansraidorj Count’s county of Setsenkhan province (current Choibalsan county of Dornod province). Until the age of 17, he was herding livestock. In 1921, he was drafted to the military service in his native province and transferred to Hujirbulan to attend the sergeant courses. Sodnomdarjaa graduated from the course in 1914.
In 1915, he was selected to a group of 20 soldiers that left Ulzii noble’s county to fight the Chinese invaders and troops of Bavuujav and Jodvoo. In 1921, Sodnomdarjaa visited the capital where he met with D. Sukhbaatar and Kh. Choibalsan. From 1921-1923, Sodonomdarjaa accomplished special missions in Western Mongolia following the orders of Sukhbaatar and Choibalsan. One of his primary missions was the elimination of anti-revolutionary leader Dambijantsan. Since 1923, he worked for the MPRP Central Committee, Council of Ministers, Department of Internal Security, state trade, finance and manufacturing organizations.
In 1915, he was selected to a group of 20 soldiers that left Ulzii noble’s county to fight the Chinese invaders and troops of Bavuujav and Jodvoo. In 1921, Sodnomdarjaa visited the capital where he met with D. Sukhbaatar and Kh. Choibalsan. From 1921-1923, Sodonomdarjaa accomplished special missions in Western Mongolia following the orders of Sukhbaatar and Choibalsan. One of his primary missions was the elimination of anti-revolutionary leader Dambijantsan. Since 1923, he worked for the MPRP Central Committee, Council of Ministers, Department of Internal Security, state trade, finance and manufacturing organizations.
My family was poor. Therefore I had to work for others to meet the ends until the age of seventeen. In 1912, when I reached 17, I heard that 28 conscripts from my county are slated to join 1000- strong military unit of Setsenkhan province. I met my nobleman Ulzii and asked him to allow me to join the conscripts. He agreed. In 1913, I was transferred to the capital and selected to continue my service in the capital from the candidates of four provinces. Subsequently, I became one of fifty soldiers selected to attend the sergeant’s course. I graduated from the sergeant’s course in 1914 and was allowed to visit my family for duration of one month.
However, my noble man did not allow me to return to my unit after the expiration of the leave period. In spring of 1915, a group of bandits led by Bavuujav raided some parts of Eastern border regions. I was selected to a unit to protect the eastern borders and took part in several clashes. After I returned from this assignment, I married to a young woman named Deleg. In 1920, I went to the Administrative center of San Beis county where I saw the Chinese invaders for the first time. In order to get familiar with situation in the capital, I decided to meet with Sukhbaatar and visited the capital. However, I did not find Sukhbaatar there but I saw what was happening in the capital. After I came back to my county, I was summoned to the Administrative center of San Beis county. At the center, I was included in to a small unit of soldiers. We spent the night at a Russian settlement at Duruu village where I learned that our unit is joining the troops led by Dugar.
We got fully armed and moved to Choir where we fought with the Chinese soldiers several times. Our unit was separated from the main unit. During this time, we met Khatanbaatar Magsarjav and Naidan Count who told us that Dugar’s troops were mobilized to strengthen the Baron Ungern’s White Guards and summoned to the capital. Our unit continued its mission in Inner Mongolia where we defeated Chinese units many times. We caught up with the main troops near the capital.
Rumors started to spread among the soldiers of our unit. Some said that the “Reds” are moving to the capital. Since our commander Dugar is allied with Ungern, we may suffer at the hands of “Reds”. After that, soldiers started to desert the unit in small groups. We also heard that troops of Governor Jodvoo from Inner Mongolia are moving to fight with us. So our unit moved to southeast to fight with them. I heard that commander Dugar is about to send a letter to Count Gombo-Idshin whose headquarters were at the Moltsog sand dunes. I decided to volunteer to take the letter as his courier.
The reason I volunteered lied in my intent to meet Sukhbaatar in order to make a right assessment of the situation. After I delivered the letter to the destination, I had to urgently come back to my unit. Our unit fought with the troops of Governor Jodvoo from Inner Mongolia. After returning from a mission, I heard that Count Gombo-Idshin is about to send an urgent letter to the Military Ministry in the capital and I asked the Count to send me.
I delivered the letter to the Military Ministry and later met Sukhbaatar. Sukhbaatar sent me with a letter summoning him to the capital. The new People’s Government appointed Dugar to command troops stationed in Zamyn-Uud. I was also appointed to the same unit. After one month, I was transferred to Moltsog HQ where I served until the spring 1922. In 1922, I was summoned by Sukhbaatar who appointed me as the courier-soldier stationed in Hovd province administration. Sukhbaatar also instructed me to gather possible intelligence on the situation in Hovd province. Cout Gombo-Idshin was appointed as the Minister for Wetern Mongolian by the People’s Government. I was instructed to work under his supervision.
In autumn of 1922, Count Gombo-Idshin summoned me and ordered to me to urgently proceed to the Altai mountain range pass at Khushuu trees. My mission was to apprehend or eliminate the white guard officer Alexandrov who was fleeing from Soviets to Xinjiang. I took a native teenage boy Damiran as my guide. I was also informed that a unit of 50 soldiers would be sent to help me later. We caught up with the White Guard officers in Munjav monastery and arrested Alexandrov and another officer there. We took tem back to Hovd where I learned that Alexandrov’s companion was a high-ranking officer who used to command White Guard regiment. The White Guard officers were handed over to the representatives of Red Army and the Soviet military advisor to the Minister commended me a lot for apprehending these officers. The advisor promised to inform his superiors on my mission.
I was sent to the capital to inform Sukhbaatar and Military Minister Khatanbaatar Magsarjav on apprehending the White Guard officers. I made to the capital within five days and handed the letters to Sukhbaatar and Magsarjav.
Sukhbaatar received the letters and instructed me to return to Hovd but warned not rush. He suggested that I make to Hovd within twelve days in order to get some rest. Sukhbaatar also instructed me take a German rifle with 10 cartridge magazine from the Hovd Ministry HQ as a sign of his appreciation. I returned to Hovd on September 29 and handed Sukhbaatar’s letters to Minister Gombo-Idshin and Chief of Department of Internal Security Baldandorj. At the same meeting, Minister Gombo-Idshin handed me a classified letter. I do not know when he received this letter. The letter contained a secret order of the Minister of Military Ministry that read “In order to eliminate anti-revolutionary Dambijantsan, the special meeting of the Council of Ministers set up a group tasked to eliminate Dambyjantsan and his entourage. The group shall consist of a commander of a unit in Tsetsenhan province Dugarjav, Commander of a unit in Tusheethan province Hero of the Bogdkhaant Mongolia Nanzad and soldiers of Hovd Ministry Sodnomdarjaa and Dash. Sodnomdarjaa is transferred under the command of Head of Government Special Commission Baldandorj. We inform you to keep the content of this letter secret.” I received a new German rifle and rode to Uliastai town with Baldandorj.
In Uliastai we have developed a secret plan on eliminating Dambiijantsan. On December 23, 1922, Commander Dugarjav, Nanzad, Dash, Davaa, Damba and I left for Dambiijantsan’s stronghold. Chief Baldandorj was planning to aid us with some 300 troops if there will be a need for this. We traveled on horseback from Uliastai to Toli Beis county. There, we left our horses and rode the camels. When we reached Dambiijantsan’s settlement, we pretended to be people seeking his protection. He allowed us to stay in his camp. The next day, we requested Dambiijantsan to visit our ger to bless us and receive a gift from us. When Dambiijantsan stepped into a ger, Dugarjav and Dashi twisted his arms and Nanzad shot him in the chest. I was manning the ger at the entrance and shot a big white dog that attacked me. I also shot at two of Dambiijantsan’s bodyguards and forced them to retreat. I also made sure that Dambyjantsan’s weapons stocks were under our control. We have gathered all residents of settlement and followers of Dambiijantsan. From the second floor of a building I announced the death of oppressive Dambiijantsan and distributed propaganda leaflets.
We have cut the head of Dambiijantsan as a proof of the accomplishment of the mission and stored it in a box for transportation. We also liberated people who were tortured by Dambiijantsan and his men. There were many people whose eyes were removed or crippled. There were several Tibetans, the envoys of Tibetan Monk Banchin Erdene, who were taken hostage by Dambiijantsan. We freed them and provided them with horses and supplies. We also appointed people to confiscate Dambiijantsan’s herds and other property. When our reinforcement arrived with Chief Baldandorj, the close followers and collaborators of Dambijantsan were also arrested. Some were executed on the spot and some were sent to a prsion. We decided to move the residents of the settlement to another place and abandon this settlement.
The Government’s mission was accomplished successfully. The oppressive Dambiijantsan was eliminated and people who were oppressed by him liberated. The documents and belongings of Dambiijantsan were confiscated and handed over to the state authorities in Uliastai town.
However, my noble man did not allow me to return to my unit after the expiration of the leave period. In spring of 1915, a group of bandits led by Bavuujav raided some parts of Eastern border regions. I was selected to a unit to protect the eastern borders and took part in several clashes. After I returned from this assignment, I married to a young woman named Deleg. In 1920, I went to the Administrative center of San Beis county where I saw the Chinese invaders for the first time. In order to get familiar with situation in the capital, I decided to meet with Sukhbaatar and visited the capital. However, I did not find Sukhbaatar there but I saw what was happening in the capital. After I came back to my county, I was summoned to the Administrative center of San Beis county. At the center, I was included in to a small unit of soldiers. We spent the night at a Russian settlement at Duruu village where I learned that our unit is joining the troops led by Dugar.
We got fully armed and moved to Choir where we fought with the Chinese soldiers several times. Our unit was separated from the main unit. During this time, we met Khatanbaatar Magsarjav and Naidan Count who told us that Dugar’s troops were mobilized to strengthen the Baron Ungern’s White Guards and summoned to the capital. Our unit continued its mission in Inner Mongolia where we defeated Chinese units many times. We caught up with the main troops near the capital.
Rumors started to spread among the soldiers of our unit. Some said that the “Reds” are moving to the capital. Since our commander Dugar is allied with Ungern, we may suffer at the hands of “Reds”. After that, soldiers started to desert the unit in small groups. We also heard that troops of Governor Jodvoo from Inner Mongolia are moving to fight with us. So our unit moved to southeast to fight with them. I heard that commander Dugar is about to send a letter to Count Gombo-Idshin whose headquarters were at the Moltsog sand dunes. I decided to volunteer to take the letter as his courier.
The reason I volunteered lied in my intent to meet Sukhbaatar in order to make a right assessment of the situation. After I delivered the letter to the destination, I had to urgently come back to my unit. Our unit fought with the troops of Governor Jodvoo from Inner Mongolia. After returning from a mission, I heard that Count Gombo-Idshin is about to send an urgent letter to the Military Ministry in the capital and I asked the Count to send me.
I delivered the letter to the Military Ministry and later met Sukhbaatar. Sukhbaatar sent me with a letter summoning him to the capital. The new People’s Government appointed Dugar to command troops stationed in Zamyn-Uud. I was also appointed to the same unit. After one month, I was transferred to Moltsog HQ where I served until the spring 1922. In 1922, I was summoned by Sukhbaatar who appointed me as the courier-soldier stationed in Hovd province administration. Sukhbaatar also instructed me to gather possible intelligence on the situation in Hovd province. Cout Gombo-Idshin was appointed as the Minister for Wetern Mongolian by the People’s Government. I was instructed to work under his supervision.
In autumn of 1922, Count Gombo-Idshin summoned me and ordered to me to urgently proceed to the Altai mountain range pass at Khushuu trees. My mission was to apprehend or eliminate the white guard officer Alexandrov who was fleeing from Soviets to Xinjiang. I took a native teenage boy Damiran as my guide. I was also informed that a unit of 50 soldiers would be sent to help me later. We caught up with the White Guard officers in Munjav monastery and arrested Alexandrov and another officer there. We took tem back to Hovd where I learned that Alexandrov’s companion was a high-ranking officer who used to command White Guard regiment. The White Guard officers were handed over to the representatives of Red Army and the Soviet military advisor to the Minister commended me a lot for apprehending these officers. The advisor promised to inform his superiors on my mission.
I was sent to the capital to inform Sukhbaatar and Military Minister Khatanbaatar Magsarjav on apprehending the White Guard officers. I made to the capital within five days and handed the letters to Sukhbaatar and Magsarjav.
Sukhbaatar received the letters and instructed me to return to Hovd but warned not rush. He suggested that I make to Hovd within twelve days in order to get some rest. Sukhbaatar also instructed me take a German rifle with 10 cartridge magazine from the Hovd Ministry HQ as a sign of his appreciation. I returned to Hovd on September 29 and handed Sukhbaatar’s letters to Minister Gombo-Idshin and Chief of Department of Internal Security Baldandorj. At the same meeting, Minister Gombo-Idshin handed me a classified letter. I do not know when he received this letter. The letter contained a secret order of the Minister of Military Ministry that read “In order to eliminate anti-revolutionary Dambijantsan, the special meeting of the Council of Ministers set up a group tasked to eliminate Dambyjantsan and his entourage. The group shall consist of a commander of a unit in Tsetsenhan province Dugarjav, Commander of a unit in Tusheethan province Hero of the Bogdkhaant Mongolia Nanzad and soldiers of Hovd Ministry Sodnomdarjaa and Dash. Sodnomdarjaa is transferred under the command of Head of Government Special Commission Baldandorj. We inform you to keep the content of this letter secret.” I received a new German rifle and rode to Uliastai town with Baldandorj.
In Uliastai we have developed a secret plan on eliminating Dambiijantsan. On December 23, 1922, Commander Dugarjav, Nanzad, Dash, Davaa, Damba and I left for Dambiijantsan’s stronghold. Chief Baldandorj was planning to aid us with some 300 troops if there will be a need for this. We traveled on horseback from Uliastai to Toli Beis county. There, we left our horses and rode the camels. When we reached Dambiijantsan’s settlement, we pretended to be people seeking his protection. He allowed us to stay in his camp. The next day, we requested Dambiijantsan to visit our ger to bless us and receive a gift from us. When Dambiijantsan stepped into a ger, Dugarjav and Dashi twisted his arms and Nanzad shot him in the chest. I was manning the ger at the entrance and shot a big white dog that attacked me. I also shot at two of Dambiijantsan’s bodyguards and forced them to retreat. I also made sure that Dambyjantsan’s weapons stocks were under our control. We have gathered all residents of settlement and followers of Dambiijantsan. From the second floor of a building I announced the death of oppressive Dambiijantsan and distributed propaganda leaflets.
We have cut the head of Dambiijantsan as a proof of the accomplishment of the mission and stored it in a box for transportation. We also liberated people who were tortured by Dambiijantsan and his men. There were many people whose eyes were removed or crippled. There were several Tibetans, the envoys of Tibetan Monk Banchin Erdene, who were taken hostage by Dambiijantsan. We freed them and provided them with horses and supplies. We also appointed people to confiscate Dambiijantsan’s herds and other property. When our reinforcement arrived with Chief Baldandorj, the close followers and collaborators of Dambijantsan were also arrested. Some were executed on the spot and some were sent to a prsion. We decided to move the residents of the settlement to another place and abandon this settlement.
The Government’s mission was accomplished successfully. The oppressive Dambiijantsan was eliminated and people who were oppressed by him liberated. The documents and belongings of Dambiijantsan were confiscated and handed over to the state authorities in Uliastai town.
Otherwise you could have a reform-minded person govern Inner Mongolia (as a warlord or a KMT governor) which with his reforms angers the nobility but his reforms ultimately fail to bring the expected result and Inner Mongolia starts to develop Pan-Mongolianism as a consequence.
the quality isn't great yeah, you can just about see the vague outline of a person
Honestly I haven't seen a lot of it, any recommendations would be good. I was thinking of doing a Chinggis Khan semi-SI.
So, just read Power for the Powerless: Oirot/Amursana Prophecy in Altai and Western Mongolia, 1890s-1920s by Andrei A. Znamenski, the author of Red Shambhala, and a scholar on nationalism, socialism and Eurasian history.
Its a pretty short read, and very interesting, key takeaways are as follows:
Image is a thangka of Lenin in the ger of a Mongolian commissar and his clerk
Its a pretty short read, and very interesting, key takeaways are as follows:
- In both Altai and Western Mongolia, as a result of encroachment on the traditional nomadic peoples lives, almost identical prophecies of Oirot Khan or Amursana emerged
- The White Faith in Altai served to significantly spread Tibetan Buddhist thinking in Altai because of similarities between the White Faith movement and Tibetan Buddhism
- There were many figures, varying wildly in demeanour and presentation, who all played parts as prophets, teachers and supposed reincarnations in both Altai and Mongolia from the 1890s to the 1920s
- As the Bolsheviks slowly took over, there were attempts to merge the Oirot/Amursana prophecies with Socialist liberation theology, these manifested as attempts to sway Ja Lama towards Bolshevism, and the creation of a second, socialist, reincarnation of Amursana who led a few thousand Buryat and Mongol troops for the Reds
Image is a thangka of Lenin in the ger of a Mongolian commissar and his clerk