PC: Austrian Belgium
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(Ignoring the likelyhood of the scenario) I wonder if Austria remains in control over Belgium*, how happy would the Belgians actualy be being ruled from Vienna. OTL just before the French revolutionary wars, they most certainly weren't. There was a revolt and everything. It would not surprise me if there would be an actual Belgian revolt against the Austrians, like there was against the Dutch. So you would have an independent Belgium a couple of decades later, like OTL. But you would have an independent Belgium with a better relationship with the Netherlands, since the Belgians did not revolt against the Dutch, but against the Austrians. That would change the balance of power in that region somewhat. And who knows what could have happen, perhaps an earlier benelux?
*Actualy Belgium is an anachronistic name in this case. It would probably still be called the Southern Netherlands, or Austrian Netherlands or something, while Belgium possibly being used as a more formal Latinised name for the Netherlands or maybe for the entire region. Also the border would be different from OTL. The prince Bishopric of Liege was not part of the Austrian Netherlands. Who know how that area would be divided at Vienna. I could easily see it being divided between the (Dutch) Netherlands and the Austrian Netherlands. Anyway this Austrian Belgium would be different from the Belgium we know.
*Actualy Belgium is an anachronistic name in this case. It would probably still be called the Southern Netherlands, or Austrian Netherlands or something, while Belgium possibly being used as a more formal Latinised name for the Netherlands or maybe for the entire region. Also the border would be different from OTL. The prince Bishopric of Liege was not part of the Austrian Netherlands. Who know how that area would be divided at Vienna. I could easily see it being divided between the (Dutch) Netherlands and the Austrian Netherlands. Anyway this Austrian Belgium would be different from the Belgium we know.
Thanks for replay. I think the revolt is very possible but Austria might overcome it as it's larger than Netherlands.
And what do you think about likelyhood of this scenario? Is it possible in your opinion?
That's why I think trading the territory for something else might be an option. Plus Austria can give part of its huge debt to the new kingdom.
Belgium was already used in the revolt against Austria, it was the United States of Belgium. If à revolt happen again I don't see why the name would not be taken again.
True, but Belgium was also used for the Netherlands. Basicly it was used as the Latin name for the Low Countries.
vgh...
Banned
Was this in 1815? I know there was one proposed in the 1770s during the war of Bavarian Succession, and it was supposed to be by agreement between the Palatine branch of the Wittelsbachs (whose head wasn't super keen on inheriting Bavaria from the extinct Bavarian line) and Joseph II, but it never went through.
Might be you want to do a larger swap. Prussia had apparently been keen on giving up more of their (and I thing also Austrian) portions of the Parition of Poland to Russia, in exchange for being allowed to annex all of Saxony. If Austria reaaaaaally wanted Belgium, then they might need to consent to this as part of the swap. It would remove a buffer between the two of course though. I think the Rhineland had also been brought up as something Prussia would give up to another (presumably back when there were less Prussian territories there) but not sure who that would be given too. After all, the Prince of Orange was lucky to be allowed to be King, and he only had some minor territories throughout the rest of Germany to be ‘compenstated’ for. If he had accepted the deal to get Wurzburg from Napoleon innthe past? Then yah, he would have some big hunk of territory worth trading for. Really, we should be looking over multiple maps here, from before the French Revolution and through the evolution of the Confederation of the Rhine, rather than just looking at maps about the end of the Congress of Vienna.
So what the deal might look like in your opinion? - allowing Prussia do take all of Saxony and Russia to take all of Duchy of Warsaw while Austria gets Belgium and Rhine province?
Austria will not accept Prussia annexing Saxony. This is not even debatable by the Austrian court. In this regard, Prussia did the best it could in the otl, absorbing a little of the territory. Basically you have to force Belgium into the hands of the Austrians which demands compensation. But compensation that the Austrians want. Which will weaken Prussia and irritate Russia.
I couldn’t say, though I suppose Austria losing Galicia would require a large amount of land. Come to think of it, having both all of Galicia and Saxony swallowed up by neighboring countries would mean Silesia would be, without a doubt, now forever lost. Something the Hapsburgs still clung to regaining, even though the area used to have loads of local dukes. It also would mean Hungary would no longer have something nearly wrapping around it to the north. Yah, far better to just count Flanders and such as a near lost cause, but to get someone friendly to their interests there. Having some Catholic king or Grand Duke who was paranoid about the French trying to swoop in, as well as wishing to avoid the Protestant Dutch moving in could be in their interests. I expect there would be some female Habsburg cousin still around (though most would likely have arranged marriages early on) who could be married to the new ruler or their son. Though then you would need to scramble a lot of other stuff in Germany, as most people with big names who weren’t Bonapartes already got themselves areas far larger than what they started the wars with.
Do you think another deal is possible - Austria gives Galicia but gets not only Belgium & Luxembourg but also Rhine Province & Westphalia? Russia is on board cause it wants Poland, and Prussia is marginalized by being given only half of Saxony like IOTL and not gaining Rhineland - Westphalia.
Why one would have to force Belgium into the hands of Austrians? If they don't lose anything else, why they wouldn't want bonus territory (that they can trade for something, or burden it with part of their debt and give it to someone else)?
Because the Austrian court didn't want the region, they were very explicit about it. So if you wish for Austria to keep this region, they will demand something else in return.
Why the region is not worth the trouble. And if they sell to someone, that someone will be France, which will make the English angry, to say the least. The Austrians wanted to partially weaken the Prussians, keep the HRE kingdoms alive and without being absorbed by other powers, and at the same time expand their territory (but the territory has to be linked to their central place).
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I've asking about a situation where Austrian court actually wants the territory.
I understand all the arguments against it but adding revenue from Belgium would help to balance the budget even though Austria's strategical position would be more complex.
Budget is not Vienna's priority, they want something useful not a short term solution that will end up being a burden.