The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

Judge Dredd34

Meilstoer said:
From an OTL perspective: Patrick Stewart's facepalming "I don't wanna live this pseudo Turning Diaries timeline but racism against "Nazis" Germans are tolerable and A4 Anglo Nazi 4 is the Regime TTL 21st Century Nazi Germany from the Injustice but Anglo characteristics supremacist with trauma dominance, helicopter parents lebensraum, orbital bombardment genocide, and democracy Anglo-Nazism contributed by the god CalBear."

In this TTL, where the history of "Nazis" Germans would be more demonized and stigmatized  but whitewashing   thinking of Apartheid view of the Blacks as the equivalent to pedophiles .

What a timeline we live in where prejudice against a certain ethnic group is taken more extreme due to the mass killing of 200 million Europeans and the cultural site of Europe is pretty much destroyed while the A4 pretty much dominates the globe and maintains to be peaceful dystopia with war, genocide, racism, dictatorship is no tolerant in A4 or else in the name of rod of Gods like Stettin while the A4 completely dominate on space with rule is forbidden to non-A4 nations for venturing into space beyond 65 miles above the Earth, considering it an act of war, only the Anglo citizenship are welcoming (sound familiar) to voyage in space. Absolute Double Standard!
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@Meilstoer Not exactly sure what your saying. The A-4 bombed Stettin once with little support from its population, the Nazis killed millions of people with great support from its population multiple times. Trying to put American pop culture into a serious situation makes it difficult to take you seriously. The non-A-4 countries can go join space in a non-militarised fashion by simply joining the A-4 international space station. Nothing you said counts as an “Absolute Double Standard” for the A-4. What alternatives are you suggesting? Why do you think the A-4 are Nazis? You mentioned this twice in one forum and it’s hard to acknowledge any of your commentary when you compare Poland to a fictional character (Guts). Also you said “A4 forbids the teaching of German to the new generation and so other nations, adhering to Nazi standards.” the author has never once said that the German language was prohibited. For some reason you’re trying to make Stettin that killed 500,000 look worse than the Nazis who killed millions. I believe both are terrible and I don’t justify either. I just don’t know why a mistake admitted by everyone born of paranoia is somehow worse than the intentional killings millions for the crime of being born.

I edited this, because what I originally said was too accusatory of the person I was replying to which isn’t right.
 
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Tsar Nicholas The Cringe

Parmenion said:
Honest to god clueless on this one, care to explain?
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Gokbay said:
It is essentially the idea that the Tatar Yoke/Mongol Rule has made Russia predisposed to having authoritarian forms of government.
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Basically, the Rus lands were politically similar to Western Europe in having quasi-feudal and quasi-parliamentary governments. But centuries of Mongol rule destroyed these systems and replaced them with the vicious "might makes right" style of Mongol rule.

To give you an example of the impact of Mongol rule, let's compare the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Novgorod Republic.

Moscow rose to prominence because it was effectively the Golden Horde's designated tax collector and was molded into an extractive and authoritarian state. Ivan III, the last Moscow Prince to pay tribute to the Horde, solidified the many trends of Russian history: authoritarian government, a harsh police network, and brutal expansion at the expense of neighbors.

Novgorod was the major Rus principality to escape direct Mongol subjugation, and it remained an unusually democratic (for the time) and participatory state in which citizens were actually consulted. It was possibly the most democratic place in Europe and was unusually similar to the model used in Scandanavia.

Ivan III's expansion specifically targeted the Novogorod Republic and he showed tremendous contempt for Novogorod's liberal ideas. When he subjugated the lands, he committed the highly symbolic act of destroying the city's bell, which represented the city's democratic traditions.

But its depressing Ivan III may have had far more mercy toward his own enemies than the Nazis did.
 
Aluma

Aluma

Judge Dredd34 said:
Are you saying you want war, genocide, racism and dictatorship by not having a A-4?
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Ah that "if you dont like X so you must like Y" logic
The nazis themselves used "so you'd rather live in a judeo-bolshevist world" to shut down all dissent and in our world we had people be treated as terrorist supporters for criticizing the US government during the height of the War on Terror
It's just framing someone for something they didnt say to disregard them, its bad
 

Judge Dredd34

Aluma said:
Ah that "if you dont like X so you must like Y" logic
The nazis themselves used "so you'd rather live in a judeo-bolshevist world" to shut down all dissent and in our world we had people be treated as terrorist supporters for criticizing the US government during the height of the War on Terror
It's just framing someone for something they didnt say to disregard them, its bad
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You’re right about that. I apologise for that, it’s just he put it into his speech and I wasn’t sure what he meant in context. It’s just he keeps bringing things up like stopping bigotry, wars, genocide by the sword isn't supposed to be good, but honestly I’m just not sure what else is supposed to bring the peace. If the A-4 does something wrong they get blamed about it. On the other hand if they do nothing everything falls apart according the author. So what are they supposed to do besides doing something? What are the alternatives?
 
Bbone91

Bbone91

And the way he seems to treat the A4 holding the keys to space as if they’re refusing to let any other country go into space, even though Calbear has said repeatedly that the A4 is more than willing to let others use their launch facilities for nonmilitary spacecraft.
 
Aluma

Aluma

Judge Dredd34 said:
It’s just he keeps bringing things up like stopping bigotry, wars, genocide by the sword isn't supposed to be good, but honestly I’m just not sure what else is supposed to bring the peace
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Agreed on that
Judge Dredd34 said:
So what are they supposed to do besides doing something?
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I think what they're doing(in regards to stopping genocide and other forms of atrocities) is fine as is, they just shouldnt target civilians

The rods should be a last resort, not a go-to measure, and while their paranoia is different from the genocidal hatred of the nazis it could still lead to the same results if they arent careful

Yes it was "just" a city with 500.000 now, but it could have been one with 5 million like NY, or one with dozens of millions like OTL Tokyo or Shanghai, and at that point you're already with a fraction of the Reich's victims in one go

And it becomes even more problematic when they'll have to face something they should be paranoid about with a clear head like the Cabal
Judge Dredd34 said:
On the other hand if they do nothing everything falls apart according the author. So what are they supposed to do besides doing something? What are the alternatives?
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In this world I think there are hardly any alternatives

No one can really contest the A4's power(unless the Cabal virus worked, but thats not happening) with the closest power behind being India, and even if she or any other "reasonable" power were to succeed the A4 they'd likely adopt the same methods because the precedent model was already set

Ideally something like them should have been estabilished without Nazi Germany and the Holocaust as the cause and developed without the trigger-happy nuke paranoia and more accepting of the adherence of new members who proved themselves(such as India) as well as the non-existence of Cabal China
But since this is a partial Nazi Victory TL things were never going to be okay nor as good as they could have been, which I think the author stated to be his view when writing this
Bbone91 said:
And the way he seems to treat the A4 holding the keys to space as if they’re refusing to let any other country go into space, even though Calbear has said repeatedly that the A4 is more than willing to let others use their launch facilities for nonmilitary spacecraft.
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Yeah that was one of my major concerns as well when discussing the A4

If they were just cutting everyone else from space period(which was the first impression I got from reading the discussion) then thats not only discriminatory but pretty much telling "yeah space is our vital space, what are you gonna do about it?"

But since it has been stated that they do allow other countries outside their alliance to go to space in non-military projects and use their stuff to do so thats a non-issue really, because it makes it very clear they are only really concerned about the security of space being used as a military asset by somebody else with an agenda and not that they discriminate others, as they'll happily let you take one of their rockets to go to Mars or whatever if you ask them(and can afford the costs of a space mission, of course)
 

Tsar Nicholas The Cringe

Aluma said:
-snip-
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OTL Europeans in the late 1980s were still wary of German reunification. Even Margaret Thatcher, the queen of neoliberalism, said she preferred half of Germany remain under Soviet occupation than see Germany reunified. Francois Mitterand accepted German reunification but made it clear it felt like getting his teeth pulled.

TTL, the image of Germany is so, so, so much worse, and for good reason.

OTL Americans have their views on the Taliban decided by two pivotal events: the destruction of those valuable Buddhist statues and 9/11. TTL, the Germans are guilty of not only launching a 9/11-style attack but completely and utterly desecrating the Old World in a way that can never be truly fixed. And even by the TTL 2020s, those horrible events are still in living memory, on top of all the monuments to "German barbarity."
 
Aluma

Aluma

Tsar Nicholas The Cringe said:
OTL Europeans in the late 1980s were still wary of German reunification. Even Margaret Thatcher, the queen of neoliberalism, said she preferred half of Germany remain under Soviet occupation than see Germany reunified. Francois Mitterand accepted German reunification but made it clear it felt like getting his teeth pulled.

TTL, the image of Germany is so, so, so much worse, and for good reason.

OTL Americans have their views on the Taliban decided by two pivotal events: the destruction of those valuable Buddhist statues and 9/11. TTL, the Germans are guilty of not only launching a 9/11-style attack but completely and utterly desecrating the Old World in a way that can never be truly fixed. And even by the TTL 2020s, those horrible events are still in living memory, on top of all the monuments to "German barbarity."
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I get that, though I'm a little confused because I wasnt speaking about the german unification itself
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

Today marks the 82nd anniversary of the Fall of Bataan, which still happens the same way as OTL.
https://www.facebook.com/CebuCityCHAOffice/posts/735646552090491
https://www.facebook.com/armedforcesofthephilippines/posts/799934252168987

I'd still feel that Pearl Harbor and Bataan would be the driving reason the U.S. firebombed and blockaded Japan to surrender in 1946.

Then the Philippines would have another last-stand moment in Brest alongside Vietnamese forces when they held off German assaults before they were reinforced by U.S. Marines.
 

Tsar Nicholas The Cringe

Gillan1220 said:
-snip-

I'd still feel that Pearl Harbor and Bataan would be the driving reason the U.S. firebombed and blockaded Japan to surrender in 1946.

Then the Philippines would have another last-stand moment in Brest alongside Vietnamese forces when they held off German assaults before they were reinforced by U.S. Marines.
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Would the TTL horrors of the European front make the Filipinos wish they were fighting against the Japanese?

I wonder what the TTL Asian perspective of the European war was like and how they would feel about Nazi atrocities in comparison to Japanese atrocities? Would they feel lucky to have had the already violent Japanese as their enemy?
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

Tsar Nicholas The Cringe said:
Would the TTL horrors of the European front make the Filipinos wish they were fighting against the Japanese?

I wonder what the TTL Asian perspective of the European war was like and how they would feel about Nazi atrocities in comparison to Japanese atrocities? Would they feel lucky to have had the already violent Japanese as their enemy?
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The Japanese would have been equally brutal as per OTL in the occupation of the Philippines in TTL, which follows the same up until 1944 when the Allied landings is in Luzon rather than Leyte. There'd still be equivalents of the Manila massacre, comfort women, POW executions, and infanticides.

The Filipinos and the Vietnamese would have been appalled seeing those mass graves of Jewish, Slavs, and Gypsies once the true horrors of the evil of Nazis have been exposed. Since the Filipinos and the Vietnamese fought in mostly a jungle environment with limited urban combat, I'm guessing there was a change in doctrine in some point.

For reference, here's a video Waffen SS vs. Viet Minh (ITTL, the Viet Minh are special forces in the ARVN that descended from the guerilla force that fought the Japanese. The same for the Philippine Scouts which fought in Bataan and later launched a war of resistance).
 
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