WI: All-Russian nation includes Poland instead of Ukraine

[GreatFrenchEmpire]

The All-Russian nation (Russian: общерусский народ, romanized: obshcherussky narod) or triune Russian nation (триединый русский народ, triyediny Russky narod), also called the pan-Russian nation, is the term for the Imperial Russian and later irredentist ideology[1][2] that sees the Russian nation as comprising a "trinity" of sub-nations:[3][4][5] Great Russia, Little Russia, and White Russia.[6] Respectively, these sub-nations are contextually identified with Russians, Ukrainians (usually including the Rusyns),[7][8] and Belarusians. Above all, the basis of the ideology's upholding of an inclusive Russian identity is centered around bringing all East Slavs under its fold.[9][10]

In simple terms this would mean that instead of Ukraine, Poland would be the "Ukraine" of this timeline. Ukraine would be an independent Balkan country like Romania/Serbia.

What kind of changes would we see if Russia and Poland united in 1700?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Piast wank where they quickly overwhelm the Kievan Rus principalities in the Middle Ages. Maybe no Age of Fragmentation, or its otherwise very short/transitions to Poland being a unit within the Mongol Empire. Then have the Tatars of the steppe defeated a lot earlier than OTL and the area settled by Polish and Russian landlords and their serfs and cossacks which are loosely controlled. So "Ukraine" can be the areas southeast of Galicia/Lodomeria and downstream from Kiev. It would still be East Slavic, and to really distinguish itself should be wholly Eastern Catholic ("Uniate") rather than the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic mix of OTL.

Otherwise it isn't possible since most of the territory of modern Ukraine is integral to Russian nationhood since it was the heart of the Kievan Rus and even more peripheral principalities like Galicia were integral Russian territories in medieval times, and perceived as such by outsiders hence why the Galician princes were given the title "King of Ruthenia" which referred to all Russian principalities.

What kind of changes would we see if Russia and Poland united in 1700?

Pretty similar to OTL but 100 years earlier. You can't have a concept of an "All-Russian Nation" that does not include Kiev (which was after all the third largest city in the Russian Empire and the USSR), and I highly doubt you can have one that doesn't include Galicia. Hell, this All-Russian Nation would likely desire Red Ruthenia in southeastern Poland.

Even the Black Sea Coast Ukraine I described above is dubious since geostrategically Russia wants a warm-water port on the Black Sea. I'm not even convinced a Ukrainian nation which was wholly Eastern Catholic would be able to escape that--linguistically they're too similar and being Eastern Catholic can be explained as them falling under the sway of schismatics.

 

[Polish Eagle]

I think you'd need a 1650s POD to achieve this--during the Swedish Deluge, have the Tsar decide turnabout is fair play and attempt the same maneuver the Polish Vasas had tried in 1610 in Moscow--push an army to Warsaw, proclaim himself King of Poland while the Commonwealth is in disarray due to the Swedish invasion. Since the Polish Vasa dynasty is soon to die out anyway, if he avoids offending the religious sensibilities, that might even stick (the great Polish-Tsarist enmity didn't really become permanent and all-pervasive until the 19th century). Problem is, a way to do this without also grabbing Ukraine is hard to see--maybe the Cossacks at the same time take on Ottoman suzerainty?

One odd thing, though, is that neither Poland-Lithuania nor the Duchy of Moscow at the time have a decisive demographic lead over one another. To my understanding, between the Time of Troubles and the Deluge breaking both down substantially, both are hovering at about 7-10 million mid-century. If united into one state...a Romanov-lead Polish-Lithuanian-Muscovite Commonwealth would be an odd duck.

Of course, such a creature would have to have an unrecognizable ideology compared to OTL. "Triune Russian Nation" would be a hard sell in a Poland-Lithuania that had had its own totally independent trajectory for 700 years prior, and the religious ties that were invoked to justify rule over Ukraine don't really exist between Moscow and a Poland-Lithuania immersed in the counter-reformation. Might end up resulting in an earlier Panslavism--which would be very appealing to those Czechs across the border only recently subdued by the Hapsburgs.

 

[Thomas Lloyd]

I mean you'd have to go back to the Varangians sailing West instead of South, but there's no major river there that would lead them to Byzantium.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

You need to change Poland to such degree that it would have nothing but name in common with OTL Poland.

 

[alexmilman]

You need to change Poland to such degree that it would have nothing but name in common with OTL Poland.

Yes, the whole thing looks somewhat fantastic. There were couple moments when union was theoretically possible but they would not led to creation of a single nation: the “weights” were balanced and cultural/religious differences already were quite significant.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Yes, the whole thing looks somewhat fantastic. There were couple moments when union was theoretically possible but they would not led to creation of a single nation: the “weights” were balanced and cultural/religious differences already were quite significant.

Such union could happen, Polish-Swedish, Polish-Hungarian or Polish-Saxon union happened too and were equally likely to merge these nations into one...

 

[Mildtryth]

Such union could happen, Polish-Swedish, Polish-Hungarian or Polish-Saxon union happened too and were equally likely to merge these nations into one...

These unions might survive in Ancien Régime conditions but it doesn't look like they'd survive the era of nationalism, although for the second, the POD is so far back it might be butterflied altogether...

 

[alexmilman]

These unions might survive in Ancien Régime conditions but it doesn't look like they'd survive the era of nationalism, although for the second, the POD is so far back it might be butterflied altogether...

We don’t have to guess on how the Russian-Polish union would be performing: just look at the Congress Poland. What it most definitely did not produce was unified Russian-Polish nation.

As for the older times, aka, before certain degree of the national identities had been settled, these to entities did not have the common borders and even there were the dynastic marriages, little came out of them. GDL had much stronger connections with the Russian state(s) but religion was seemingly a killer.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Piast wank where they quickly overwhelm the Kievan Rus principalities in the Middle Ages

If that would happen, majority Eastern Slavs would be Catholic due to being under Catholic Piast when the schism of OTL 1054 happened and Orthodoxy would be screwed (it was not long after the lands there were Christianized, most nobles and common folk didn't care that much about being Orthodox or Catholic, they would just follow whatever their liege lord says), but in that case Rus' (the label itself was also quite young at that time) would lose it's meaning and probably even that state wouldn't be majority Eastern Slavic -- not that there was that much of a difference when it was realistically (not likely, but IMHO not ASB) possible - it'd require massively wanking Boleslaus the Brave when he took Kiev, probably with Yaroslav dying not long after Kiev was taken, Boleslav and Svyatopolk taking Novogorod as well, and that Boleslav doing what he did in Bohemia, so deposing candidate he placed himself on throne and taking ducal power directly, Polotsk was de facto going indepent under Bryachislav Izaiaslavovich anyway, so the process would be hastened and Mstislav the Brave was reigning in Tmuratakan, of course they would probably ally against Piasts but considering Mieszko II didn't get stomped by Conrad II IOTL and it was Ruthenian invasion which finished him, and ITTL Briachislav-Mstislav coalition has considerably less resources and men than Yaroslav IOTL, IMHO max they would be able to do would be to take Chernigov (Mstislav took it IOTL) and Briachislav would probably take Pskov and join it to Polotsk principality, so there would be "Poles" (all Piast ITTL subjects) and separate 'Polotskans' and "Chernigovians", but anyways if Piasts maintained control over Kiev and gained over Novogorod they would most likely use that resources to campaign in West, which means that 1028 invasion of Germany is probably a lot more succesful, maybe Mieszko would even short-term occupy part of Saxony, which I imagine he'd use as bargaining chip with Conrad to take back Meissen march (Boleslaus the Brave had it, and there is a chance Mieszko I was also named margrave of that march) and finish off Premyslids while Conrad would be forced to fully recognize Mieszko's royal title, which would result in state roughly extending it's dominions between Elbe and Novogorod, and considering population density in Rus' was much lower than in say Early Modern Times, ancestors of Western (the state would include besides Poland, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia and southern half of Elbean Slav lands, while probably conquering most of northern half as well later on) and Eastern Slavs would be roughly on par population-wise in that state.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Above scenario is what I mean by "ATL Poland would share nothing but name with OTL Poland" (while ATL Russia would not share even a name with OTL one).

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Above scenario is what I mean by "ATL Poland would share nothing but name with OTL Poland" (while ATL Russia would not share even a name with OTL one).

Polotsk would be more like "Belarus" and Chernigov "Ukraine" of ITTL while counterpart of "Russia" would not even exist.

 

[JaguarCD]

Maybe the Cossacks of Polish descent become more united with Cossacks of Russian descent.

Also, an early medieval change maybe? Russia could have been Muslim, Jewish, Slavic pagan, Viking pagan, steppe pagan, Catholic, or Germanic pagan (this one only in early early medieval times). Maybe Russia goes Catholic, or both Poland and Russia go for steppe tribe religion.