Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Found this map and I think you guys might be interested. If I remember correctly there was a post related to this, about the 1946-47 Paris peace treaties
A thicker Hungary?
 
On 11 December 1941 -- four days after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour -- Germany and Italy also declared war on the United States, cementing the Axis Powers' alliance. On 15 December, Japanese diplomats presented the German and Italian governments with a proposal to divide all of Asia into spheres of influence along the 70th meridian east longitude, Tordesillas-style.
According to this plan, most of the Middle East (including Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Palestine/Israel) would be under German influence, with Italy getting Egypt, Yemen, and the Gulf States; meanwhile, Japan would get all of China, Southeast Asia, and India (or at least, most of it). The USSR would be partitioned, with European Russia, the Caucasus, most of Turkestan, and part of Siberia falling under German influence. Exact borders were vague, especially in the USSR and India.

German officials were unhappy with the plan for a number of reasons. For one, Japan still didn't make any promises of joining the war against the USSR. Secondly, the arbitrary borders would be hard to administer; rather than drawing new borders and inventing new countries, Germany would prefer instead to install friendly puppets in Asian countries and exploit them economically and politically, much as they did in Norway. Third, many Nazi officials saw the plan as too favourable to the Japanese, giving them control over all of China, India, and half of Russia (on paper, anyway).

Still, Adolf Hitler liked the plan, so it was officially adopted as some distant aspirational goal. It had little affect on actual Nazi policy. There was a plan -- Operation Orient -- which would have involved German forces linking up with Japanese ones via the Middle East, but the idea was scrapped after the decisive Allied victories at both Stalingrad and El Alamein.
 
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1919 proposed borders of the Free State of Fiume.
 
I wanted to compile some Germany-centric proposals made around the Congress of Vienna in one post. I won't go into much detail, but hopefully this will still be interesting:

Bavaria's and Austria's Competing Designs For The Palatinate & Salzburg

Both Austria and Bavaria were very keen on gaining permanent control over Salzburg and its environs (Passau and the Berchtesgadener Land). The Austrian military establishment saw Salzburg as key for defending against attacks from the west, while Bavaria was keen on gaining Salzburg due to its high tax revenue (Berchtesgaden in particular had a lucrative salt business) as well as its cultural prestige. The Inn- and Hausruckviertel of Oberösterreich were also desired by both states, however Bavaria was more willing to make compromises there than in regards to Salzburg.

Multiple ideas on how to compensate Bavaria for these territories were floated since, with the 1813 Treaty of Ried, Bavaria's gains at the expense of Austria were to either be honored or sufficiently compensated. Early on it became clear that Austria wanted to regain Tyrol and Vorarlberg, and that Bavaria would be allowed to annex Würzburg as compensation for those territories. Primarily Austria was intent on offering territories along the Rhine instead, potentially creating either a joint Austro-Bavarian Rhenish territory or a more patchwork arrangement, to defend the Rhineland together with Prussia, whose control over Westphalia and the Niederrhein around Kleve was certain.

Munich's preferred arrangement was to keep Salzburg, but if it were to cede it, they had a clear preference for where they should be compensated: ideally they didn't want any territory o n the left bank of the Rhine, instead favoring a corridor containing the Palatinate to the right side of the river, including the cities of Heidelberg and Mannheim, which were part of Baden since 1803. Ideally this could even be expanded northwards to cover the cities of Frankfurt, Fulda, and Hanau. If Bavaria was to gain a foothold on the left bank of the Rhine, they wanted that to be limited to a narrow strip of land covering the cities of Mainz, Speyer, and Worms.

Any additional territorial gains on the right bank of the Rhine were to be avoided, with Bavaria preferring arrangements that would have put that duty primarily to Baden, Prussia, and Württemberg, especially if somehow Alsace were to be partitioned between Baden and Württemberg (in part to compensate for the ultimate loss of Mömpelgard in the Franche-Comté).

On April 23rd 1815 Bavaria and Austria, with the help of Lord Wellington and Russia's Karl Nesselrode, came to an agreement that Salzburg could be partitioned, with Austria keeping the southern magistracies of Gastein, Hopfgartne, St. Johann im Pongau, St. Michael im Lungau, Mittersill, Radstadt, Taxenbach, and Tamsweg. Here's a map of that line, courtesy of Robert Landauer's article "Die Einverleibung Salzburgs durch Österreich 1816". This agreement would also have granted Bavaria some minor territories belonging to Baden, Hessen-Darmstadt, and Württemberg, and would have given Bavaria escheatment rights for Baden's Neckar and Main- und Tauberkreis after the near-inevitable extinction of the House of Baden's primary male line. The lands to the left of the Rhine that at that point were under joint Austro-Bavarian control would have remained Austrian under this arrangement.

Austria - Teilung Salzburgs Vorschlag 1815.png


The idea that Austria could keep what would later become the Bavarian Rhenish Palatinate would have played into the ideal of Austria maintaining closer ties with the other German states. I have seen the formulation of a new "Vorderösterreich" being thrown around, especially if Vienna had also managed to gain control over Mainz. Still, since Mainz was floated as compensation for Hessen-Darmstadt ceding the Duchy of Westfalen to Prussia, that likely would have required other compensation elsewhere... Austria was also interested in the lands of Nassau-Saarbrücken for this purpose, which would have led to either no Franco-Prussian border or an even shorter one compared to OTL.

However when it became clear that the Austrian faction favoring a contiguous Austria won out, the OTL arrangement of Bavaria gaining the Palatinate and Austria gaining Salzburg was reached, though the exact borders would only be achieved with first the Treaty of Munich in 1816 and the Congress of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1818, which largely dealt with the issue of Baden's inheritance.

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The True Question of Saxony

Friedrich August's alliance with France during the Napoleonic Wars caused a great distrust in him and his family around the Congress of Vienna. With the King of Saxony imprisoned by the Prussians Saxony was not represented and instead it as a state was entirely dependent on the good will of the actual attendants.

Prussia was famously intent on annexing all or nearly all of the kingdom. In 1814 even the Austrians with Metternich and the British with Castlereagh were in favor of this, seeing it as a useful solution to make Prussia a reliable ally against future Russian ambitions. The British in particular thought that Prussia, controlling the important fortresses of Torgau and Erfurt, would generally be an excellent counterweight to both Russia and Austria, while also lessening the blow of Berlin losing certain territories, especially East Frisia, to Hannover. Still, certain factions in Austria and of course the Russians were not so keen. St. Petersburg saw a Prussian Saxony as a threat to their interests in Poland, while Vienna also saw the risk of Prussia sharing a very long border with the Bohemian crown lands.

After Prussia's assistance against Russia became less certain, partition proposals were floated instead.

The first Austrian-initiated proposal from October 1814 involved the following concessions (see this map for reference), with a combined population of roughly 430,000 people:
- the Kurkreis/Wittenberger Kreis
- the Niederlausitz
- most of the Thüringer Kreis
- and the smaller possessions of Barby, Gommern, Jüterborg, Mansfeld. and Querfurt

This proposal would have made Saxony an effective buffer between Prussian Brandenburg and Austrian Bohemia. When Prussia refused this offer, insisting again on a complete annexation, the British presented an expanded version of Austria's offer, that would have added the Oberlausitz, the town of Elsterwerda, the fortress city of Torgau, and other smaller territories in Saxony's north. Instead Prussia floated the idea that if Friedrich August was to have a state of his own, he could either get a state in the southern Rhineland and Luxembourg or in the Papal Legations. In either case that new state was to be a kingdom as not to give Friedrich August a lower rank. However one key reason why especially a Rhenish state for the Wettin king was rejected was the fear that this state would soon become a French client state, while Italy was deemed too distant.

War between Prussia on one side and Austria and Russia on the other became a possibility to due to the very hostile tone of the discussion. Consequently the British under Castlereagh then prepared another offer for Prussian gains at Saxony's expense, adding roughly half of the Oberlausitz, the former Hochstift Merseburg, the Albertine half of the Grafschaft Henneberg (later known as the Kreis Schleusingen), and the towns of Delitzsch, Eilenburg, and Landsberg of the Kreis Leipzig in addition to the two prior offers. This would have given Prussia a territory inhabited by roughly 730,000 people.

Ultimately Prussia was more receptive to that plan, but floated their desire for two changes: they wanted the fortress city of Torgau and the city of Leipzig. In the spirit of compromise, and thanks to Russia's pressure, Berlin ultimately conceded Leipzig but gained Torgau. This was achieved by St. Petersburg pushing for an independent, neutral fortress city in Thorn/Toruń, similar to what had earlier been agreed for Krakau/Kraków, and Prussia agreed to a "swap" that allowed them to keep the militarily more relevant city. It is also likely that this swap is the origin of the common misconception that a Posen-Saxony swap was on the table, pars pro toto.

Ultimately some other territories were also added to the concession, mostly exclaves. Though interestingly two small sets of exclaves, the Ziegenhierdsches Ländchen scattered around the cities of Gera and Ronneburg, as well as the exclaves of the Schönburgische Herrschaften were apparently forgotten, as evidently all other exclaves of Saxony were ceded away. Furthermore Prussia would cede some parts of former Saxon exclaves it had gained to Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen. Still, given the sheer amount of exclaves that Saxony had and that Prussia gained, I do wonder if Berlin ever considered ceding some more of them to other "Thuringian" states to gain favors with them (e.g. Blankenfeld, Blintendorf, Gefell, and Sparnberg to any of the four branches of Haus Reuß).​
 
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The 'World Lake Concept,' a 1977 map showing a possible total partition of the oceans. This is presumably happening in the context of the third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (1973-82), but I haven't yet found other information on the proposal.
So, the US, Australia and France are main beneficiaries of this plan
 
Swiss-Alsace-Lorraine Proposal.png

Apparently, according to the wikipedia article about Alsace-Lorraine, Bismark proposed that Switzerland should receive Alsace-Lorraine:
"Bismarck and the South German industrialists proposed to have Alsace ceded to Switzerland, while Switzerland would compensate Germany with another territory. The Swiss rejected the proposal, preferring to remain neutral between the French and Germans."
This is kind of a weird proposal, but it does have a source in it. I've actually seen mixed opinions on whether or not Bismarck actually even wanted to take Alsace-Lorraine, with some saying he did and others that he did not. But I'd like to give my perspective if this was the course of action they took:

- Switzerland accepts the deal but France does not:
While the Prussian forces may have been able to squeeze the term out while in Paris, it's unlikely that it would be fully honored once they left. When it comes to being a neutral nation, you have to ensure that you do not draw the ire of the foreign nations respecting neutrality. For an annexation like this to occur, it would call into question Swiss neutrality, and put enmity between the French and Swiss needlessly, even with Switzerland's unusual status as a permanently neutral nation. Likely though, because of this status, it would go into international arbitration to discuss what to do with the territory, likely being annexed to Germany or back to France.

- Switzerland and France both accept the deal:
From a certain standpoint, it makes some sense. Alsace-Lorraine had strategic purposes of keeping Germany protected from a resurgent France. Giving it to a neutral nation makes a buffer, and a buffer recognized internationally to be neutral. Yet it also alters some strategic thinking on the German side. If the Germans respect Swiss territorial neutrality, then the occupation of Belgium is likely a must. But then again, the Germans did not respect Belgian neutrality, nor did they focus on Alsace as a major part of the Schlieffen plan. Therefore, would Switzerland be included in the thrust into France in WW1? I don't feel like it would have, only because Alsace Lorraine, unlike Northern France, was far more defensible and carried with it the expectation of violating the neutrality of a country meant to be, by all European powers, neutral. At the same time though, the Swiss have a problem in trying to defend it, as it would have limits as to how many men it could fight. If it joined France instead, the Swiss could hold, at the expense of possibly being roped into a future European conflict. However, I'm not confident in this viewpoint. Swiss neutrality was partially made by the fact they lived in the alps, and never were expected to have any ambitions on other major powers. In other words, they basically had a specific area that they were allowed to operate and expand within, if national policy dictated it.

There's actually a thread that was dedicated to this so: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ne-transferred-to-switzerland-in-1871.523335/
 
The 'World Lake Concept,' a 1977 map showing a possible total partition of the oceans. This is presumably happening in the context of the third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (1973-82), but I haven't yet found other information on the proposal.
Damn, that's an interesting map. And even more interesting if this is actually a proposal that was debated at the United Nations.
I mean, I just can't conceive a world with no concept of Neutral/International Waters, where you have to ask permission to navigate the ocean because, technically, every part of it is "someone else's pond".
 
What do you mean?
I do believe that the border was specifically crafted to ensure it was defensible for Germany, the Swiss having a much different set of ressources (be it manpower, transportation, economy, industry, whatever you want) to defend it would for example not care at all to take Metz, but have much greater interest in the regions of Montbéliard, Gex, the Jura and the Vosges basically.
 
I do believe that the border was specifically crafted to ensure it was defensible for Germany, the Swiss having a much different set of ressources (be it manpower, transportation, economy, industry, whatever you want) to defend it would for example not care at all to take Metz, but have much greater interest in the regions of Montbéliard, Gex, the Jura and the Vosges basically.
I also think that proposal was for the Swiss to take Alsace not Lorriane
I see. They may not have a choice. The swiss may be neutral, but are not completely immune to international pressure. They'd probably be forced to take the territory anyways, since France would still ultimately have a border with Germany, rendering the buffer less effective. Though realistically, the Swiss would give the whole territory up regardless.

Also even if it was just Alsace, the effects would still likely be present. Giving neutral nations territory outside their sphere essentially removes them as neutrals. Though if there was war on either side, the Swiss would probably seek peace rather than fight for a territory they never properly asked for. Realistically.
 
I see. They may not have a choice. The swiss may be neutral, but are not completely immune to international pressure. They'd probably be forced to take the territory anyways, since France would still ultimately have a border with Germany, rendering the buffer less effective. Though realistically, the Swiss would give the whole territory up regardless.

Also even if it was just Alsace, the effects would still likely be present. Giving neutral nations territory outside their sphere essentially removes them as neutrals. Though if there was war on either side, the Swiss would probably seek peace rather than fight for a territory they never properly asked for. Realistically.
realistically they would just refuse to be involved, and if they were, as pro-German as Switzerland was, they'd just give it back to France to avoid putting oil on the fire.
 
Would "Sauron's Plans for Empire post LoTR" count?
Honestly, I don't think so. First, this thread has always been for unrealized real-world plans by national leaders, and second, what would Sauron even have wanted (I have never picked up a LOTR book or watched any of the movies in my life)?
 
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