AHC: Make Escort Carriers Prevalent Among Developing Nations During The Cold War.

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

The picture above is of a Avenger Class Escort Carrier. A "poor man's carrier", the Avenger Class was made from converted cargo ships. Although slowish and could only carry 15-20 aircraft, the design proved effective for convoy protection, anti submarine warfare, and providing close air support for amphibious invasions. They were cheap to make (relatively) and easy to mass produce. However at the end of WW2, most escort carriers were scraped and by the 1960s the concept was pretty much dead and forgotten.

This in my opinion was a mistake. By the 1960s most of the world had experienced decolonization, and there were numerous countries that could benefit from having aircraft carriers, but couldn't afford real ones. So, what can we do to bring back the escort carrier concept and make it available to developing nations throughout the Cold War?

Note: Preferably conversions from cargo ships, not specifically designed brand new ships like the Casablanca class, although it's not nessecary. Also, light carriers are not escort carriers.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The problem is role. Developing nations don't have convoys to protect, they don't need ASW and they don't do amphibious assaults, so a CVE is not useful for them. They are more concerned about smacking rebels and pissing matches with equally poor neighbors. Meanwhile most developing nations have trouble affording anything more than old WWII frigates/DDE's at the time, with submarines and real destroyers being a luxury, so a CVE basically destroys the naval budget for something of marginal use at best

CVE's also have the problem that the only thing they can operate is helicopters by 1960. Even during WWII the F6F which entered service in 1943 was too big and the F4F was kept in production for them. This has only gotten worse as time goes on and even full size carriers needing a big and expensive cat and trap system to operate first rate aircraft by the mid 50's. If you are just going to have helicopters, then you might as well just buy your surface combatants with hangars for helicopters and not need an extra ship that can only do that

 

[StevoJH]

The problem isn't even the cost of the carrier.

The problem is the cost to purchase, maintain and operate the aircraft that fly from the carrier.

 

[Vabasion]

How big of an air group could you put on a 20000 ton carrier if you placed only AA weapons on it and focused protection on torpedo system and a bit on the deck leaving side armor out

 

[sparky42]

How big of an air group could you put on a 20000 ton carrier if you placed only AA weapons on it and focused protection on torpedo system and a bit on the deck leaving side armor out

What time frame are you talking about?

 

[I lurk therefore I am]

How big of an air group could you put on a 20000 ton carrier if you placed only AA weapons on it and focused protection on torpedo system and a bit on the deck leaving side armor out

The Invincibles were about 20,000 ton and had an air group which maxed out at about 20 or so (mixed Helicopters and Harriers).

After the Sea Dart was removed, that went up to about 24

 

[sparky42]

The Invincibles were about 20,000 ton and had an air group which maxed out at about 20 or so (mixed Helicopters and Harriers).

After the Sea Dart was removed, that went up to about 24

Could something of the same tonnage have more if there was a better layout? I seem to remember the hanger on the Invincibles narrowed around the midship?

 

[sparky42]

View attachment 899305

The picture above is of a Avenger Class Escort Carrier. A "poor man's carrier", the Avenger Class was made from converted cargo ships. Although slowish and could only carry 15-20 aircraft, the design proved effective for convoy protection, anti submarine warfare, and providing close air support for amphibious invasions. They were cheap to make (relatively) and easy to mass produce. However at the end of WW2, most escort carriers were scraped and by the 1960s the concept was pretty much dead and forgotten.

This in my opinion was a mistake. By the 1960s most of the world had experienced decolonization, and there were numerous countries that could benefit from having aircraft carriers, but couldn't afford real ones. So, what can we do to bring back the escort carrier concept and make it available to developing nations throughout the Cold War?

Note: Preferably conversions from cargo ships, not specifically designed brand new ships like the Casablanca class, although it's not nessecary. Also, light carriers are not escort carriers.

Was it though? I mean arguably the “through deck cruisers” were floating around by the 60s, for example the French and Italian helicopter cruisers could preform convoy protection/ASW, granted supporting amphibious actions would be a stretch (though I suppose could be used in the transport roles?), the USN have considered such designs in the 70s as well I thought?

 

[Vabasion]

What time frame are you talking about?

1920-1940 if possible and 1950-1970

The Invincibles were about 20,000 ton and had an air group which maxed out at about 20 or so (mixed Helicopters and Harriers).

After the Sea Dart was removed, that went up to about 24

Two issues, one should have been clear about the period im asking about and two, British carriers were rather inefficiently designed due to their armored hangars

 

[sparky42]

1920-1940 if possible and 1950-1970


Two issues, one should have been clear about the period im asking about and two, British carriers were rather inefficiently designed due to their armored hangars

I imagine something along the lines of the Light Fleet Carriers, or the follow on Centaur class?

1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also to be fair the Invincibles were a Cold War design, long after the armoured carriers of WW2.

 

[I lurk therefore I am]

1920-1940 if possible and 1950-1970


Two issues, one should have been clear about the period im asking about and two, British carriers were rather inefficiently designed due to their armored hangars

I'm talking about the 70s/80s STOVL carriers, which were not armoured, not the WW2 Invicibles.

 

[Captain Seafort]

I'm talking about the 70s/80s STOVL carriers, which were not armoured, not the WW2 Invicibles.

Not least because there wasn't an HMS Invincible during WW2 - the last ship of the name before the late-70s light carrier was the battlecruiser.

 

[CV12Hornet]

1920-1940 if possible and 1950-1970

1920-1940 is up to 70 aircraft, though as Ranger and Wasp show that's with basically no protection and suboptimal speed.

By the 1950s-1970s, about 25, if you're not devoting air wing space to high-impact S-2 Trackers.

Note that this is 20,000 tons full; 20,000 tons standard is a different ballgame.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

The problem is role. Developing nations don't have convoys to protect, they don't need ASW and they don't do amphibious assaults, so a CVE is not useful for them. They are more concerned about smacking rebels and pissing matches with equally poor neighbors. Meanwhile most developing nations have trouble affording anything more than old WWII frigates/DDE's at the time, with submarines and real destroyers being a luxury, so a CVE basically destroys the naval budget for something of marginal use at best

CVE's also have the problem that the only thing they can operate is helicopters by 1960. Even during WWII the F6F which entered service in 1943 was too big and the F4F was kept in production for them. This has only gotten worse as time goes on and even full size carriers needing a big and expensive cat and trap system to operate first rate aircraft by the mid 50's. If you are just going to have helicopters, then you might as well just buy your surface combatants with hangars for helicopters and not need an extra ship that can only do that

Propeller aircraft can launch off of escort carriers.

 

[sparky42]

Propeller aircraft can launch off of escort carriers.

What generation of aircraft are you talking about?

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

What generation of aircraft are you talking about?

WW2 and immediate post world war two aircraft, the type of aircraft that many developing nations in otl were using well into the 70s.

 

[Legofan4]

Propeller aircraft can launch off of escort carriers.

Which developing countries would need aircraft far enough away from their own territory to justify a carrier?

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

An Avenger Class shows that you can convert cargo ships into escort carriers on the cheap.

We're talking 8-10,000 tons.

We're not building new carrier designs from scratch, were getting developing nations to convert used cargo ships into cheap carriers that can hold 10-20 propeller aircraft for maritime patrol and close air support.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Which developing countries would need aircraft far enough away from their own territory to justify a carrier?

- Any that deploy there forces in UN peacekeeping missions.
- Any that are a large archipelago.
- Any that want to power project.
- Any that wish to help keep sea lanes secure from things like piracy.

 

[ennobee]

The problem with escort carriers is that after 1950 everything they could be used for was already taken over by helicopters and heli-carrying frigates. The rest was made obsolete by the other development of the WWII island-hopping campaign: the practical knowledge of building airstrips fast and cheap even in inhospitable terrain.