AHTL:Vox Non Incerta

[HMS Audacious]

With war in Europe looking ever closer and the Spanish civil war beginning, the Minister for Co-Ordination of Defense, Sir Thomas Inskip, returns full control of all embarked aviation to the Royal Navy. The first of the new fleet carriers is laid down on the 27th of April 1937 as yard number 732 at Vickers-Armstrongs Barrow in Furness yard. With the FAA under Royal Navy control, the Head of Aviation, Vice Admiral Sir Arthur Dowding, contacts the Fairey Aviation Company, the Gloster Aircraft Company, and the Blackburn company about building a fighter for the Navy. Both Fairey and Blackburn tell the Admiralty that they are unable to build a new fighter due to them building and designing follow-on aircraft for the Skua dive bomber and Swordfish TBR, respectively. Gloster submit their G.34 design for the navy's first monoplane fighter.

Gloster calls the new fighter the Goshawk. After informal discussions with his brother Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, Vice Admiral Sir Arthur Dowding learns that the RAF are trying to get cannons for their new fighter, the Spitfire. It is hoped that the Goshawk will be armed with four 20 mm Hispano cannons, but due to problems with the modification and production of the cannon, it's decided that the Mk.I Goshawk will have to be armed with four Oerlikon FF 20 mm cannon.

 

[roachbeef]

Is this using the Mercury engine? Is this a single seat?

 

[HMS Audacious]

In February ‘38, the first prototype Goshawk takes off from the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough. The prototype is powered by one of the five pre-production Bristol Hercules radial engines, rated for 1100 hp . Bristol warns Gloster that they shouldn't push the engine to its limits due to them still having a few problems with the engine. The testbed engine is capable of doing 1290 hp, but it comes at a cost. The engine nearly blew itself up when pushed, so Bristol reduced the horsepower to 1100 hp for the pre-production engine.

The first flight lasts for twenty minutes, but during that time, the aircraft is pushed to 320 mph in level flight and is capable of climbing to 22,000 feet. On one of the high speed runs at 500 feet, the pilot hits 329 mph.

 

[HMS Audacious]

Is this using the Mercury engine? Is this a single seat?

It's a single seat fighter powered by a pre production Bristol Hercules engine that has been rated to 1100 hp .

 

[Zheng He]

Does this mean the Skua is built as a pure dive bomber and not a hybrid dive bomber/fighter?

 

[HMS Audacious]

Does this mean the Skua is built as a pure dive bomber and not a hybrid dive bomber/fighter?

The Skua is built as a pure dive bomber but is capable of carrying two forward firing .303 machine guns and a rear facing Vickers gun .

 

[Zheng He]

The Skua is built as a pure dive bomber but is capable of carrying two forward firing .303 machine guns and a rear facing Vickers gun .

Similar to Dauntless then, only earlier...

 

[HMS Audacious]

With the first four flights of the Goshawk being successful, Gloster starts with the pre-production of the new fighter. Bristol, who is still having trouble with the Hercules engine at its full output of 1290 hp, drops the horsepower of the first twenty engines to 1190 hp, which sorts out the majority of the problems.

The Royal Navy’s first purpose-built carrier, HMS Ark Royal, is commissioned. Her airgroup is to consist of the twenty pre-production Goshawk fighters, twenty-two Swordfish TBR, and eighteen Skua dive bombers. After she is commissioned, she is sent to Gibraltar to work up her crew and her new air group.

 

[roachbeef]

So the POD is that the FAA is returned to RN control 2 years early? With an air-cooled radial engine being used for single-engined monoplane fighters earlier on than OTL, there will be more of a reason to keep increasing individual horsepower over slapping on more engines.

The use of Vickers .50 is interesting. The Browning .303 was something like... 10 kg per gun with 25 g per round? How much does the Vickers .50 weigh? AN/M2 was in the late 20-something-kg range, but I imagine the Vickers .50 has a lower weight. I have the cartridge weighing at 83 g per round with 750 m/s MV.

Since the Hispano won't mature for quite some time (although the combined RN-RAF effort might lead to an earlier adoption), I'm assuming that the Vickers .50 will be replacing the .303. That will lead to a lot more German bombers being shot down, and might prevent a few bombings of British ships.

With 3 years until the invasion of Norway, the better FAA fighters (and I doubt they'll stay unupgraded) might just be enough to keep the RN in the game at Norway, although the UK's biggest problem was thinking the KM would break out instead of supporting the landings. If Norway survives, that will be huge.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Someone has been reading my notes!!! I love a good FAA time line!
Follond left Gloster Aitcraft in January 1937 to found his own company, so who is doing the redesign of the G35 for naval service?
Just a suggestion but in early 1937 Bristols were touting the Taurus as a fighter engine, 1,100hp, lighter with a smaller frontal area than the Hercules and as a bonus Fairey aviation were designing the Albacore to use the same engine.
So if the fighter is given the Taurus as well then you have Airgroups with Swordfish and Skua using the Perseus, as well as the Goshawk and Albacore using the Taurus. there will be just two engine types requiring spares and tools.
As a bonus it is quite practical IMVHO to re-engine the skua for the Taurus, less frontal area and more power would do that particular aircraft no harm.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I have become a recent convert to the Oerkilion FF 20mm cannon - as it is available and unlike the HS404 is 'mature' in the late 30s

With a 1937 POD the armament of the Gloster in 1940 could be 4 x 20mm FF cannon similar to the Type 99's found on the A6m Zero fighters

The type 99-1 (IJN version of the FF) was a 23 KG weapon initially fed from a 60 round drum

While the original 128 gram 20x72mm round of the FF gun had an MV of 600 mps / 2000 fps at about 550 RPM

The Browning MK2 .303 was a 10 kg weapon - with a 350 round belt (10 kgs of ammo) - with 8 guns weighing 160 kgs

So given the main threat to a RN fleet at this time is snoopers and bombers - 2, 3 and 4 engined aircraft a brace of 4 x 20mm cannon makes more sense than MGs IMO and the guns are about the same weight as an air Vickers 50 and lighter than the AN/M2 (27 kgs)

Hell if only they had listen to me at the time the Hurricane would have been armed like this in 1940 - tsk!

 

[HMS Audacious]

Someone has been reading my notes!!! I love a good FAA time line!
Follond left Gloster Aitcraft in January 1937 to found his own company, so who is doing the redesign of the G35 for naval service?
Just a suggestion but in early 1937 Bristols were touting the Taurus as a fighter engine, 1,100hp, lighter with a smaller frontal area than the Hercules and as a bonus Fairey aviation were designing the Albacore to use the same engine.
So if the fighter is given the Taurus as well then you have Airgroups with Swordfish and Skua using the Perseus, as well as the Goshawk and Albacore using the Taurus. there will be just two engine types requiring spares and tools.
As a bonus it is quite practical IMVHO to re-engine the skua for the Taurus, less frontal area and more power would do that particular aircraft no harm.

The Taurus engine has problems, the development hasn't increased the amount of power and Bristol sees it as a dead end. The Hercules engine is capable of 1290hp and they see it as a better development. The Goshawk and Albacore are going to be powered by the Hercules and the Swordfish and Skua powered by the perseus .

 

[roachbeef]

While the original 128 gram 20x72mm round of the FF gun had an MV of 600 mps / 2000 fps at about 550 RPM

I feel like the Oerlikon can only ever be a stopgap measure, just like the Vickers .50 MG. Its MV is a bit on the low end, and with higher aircraft speeds in the European Theater, deflection shots might be a bit trickier that way. Maybe have a mix of 2 Oerlikon and 2-4 Vickers? I have no idea if the Vickers can be synchronized with the propellers, but if they can, they would be a great deal more effective and allow a 2x 20 mm + 4x .50 configuration (with 2 above the cowl and 2 in the wings). The .50 round is good enough against fighters as a stopgap.

Still, belt-fed Hispanos (with their 2800+ fps MV)are the way to go long term.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The Taurus engine has problems, the development hasn't increased the amount of power and Bristol sees it as a dead end. The Hercules engine is capable of 1290hp and they see it as a better development. The Goshawk and Albacore are going to be powered by the Hercules and the Swordfish and Skua powered by the perseus .

With monoplane fighters and dive bombers coming into service in 1938 or so the Albacore in a non starter.

 

[Llewwyy]

Still the Hercules engine has less frontal area than the Pratt, that is the advantage of sleeve valve engines. What I would like to know is does the Goshawk use NACA data for the wing design? My thought was more Tempest less Spitfire.

 

[HMS Audacious]

With the first three Illustrious-class carriers building and the newer aircraft getting larger, it's decided that the last three carriers will have a small increase in displacement by adding a second half hanger deck, allowing them to be capable of carrying up to fifty aircraft. These three carriers will make a subclass called the Indomitable class. It is hoped that this will increase the amount of aircraft that can be launched in a single strike.

The Third Sea Lord, Vice Admiral Sir Reginald Henderson, starts designing the follow-on to the Illustrious class. With the increase of weight and size of the new aircraft being designed and war looming in Europe, the London Naval Treaty’s size limitation of the new carriers is seen as an issue. Admiral Henderson asks the First Sea Lord if they can break the treaty a bit by increasing the displacement to 27,000 tonnes. The reply he is given is that he can submit designs ranging from 23,000 to 32,000 tonnes.

The first Goshawk fighters are delivered to the fleet. Their main armament consists of four Oerlikon 20 mm cannon, with two in each wing. This is seen as a stopgap until the HS.404 is more mature. The replacement for the Swordfish, the Albacore, is starting flight trials powered by a Bristol Hercules II engine.

 

[HMS Audacious]

Still the Hercules engine has less frontal area than the Pratt, that is the advantage of sleeve valve engines. What I would like to know is does the Goshawk use NACA data for the wing design? My thought was more Tempest less Spitfire.

Yes they managed to get time in a wind tunnel.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I feel like the Oerlikon can only ever be a stopgap measure, just like the Vickers .50 MG. Its MV is a bit on the low end, and with higher aircraft speeds in the European Theater, deflection shots might be a bit trickier that way. Maybe have a mix of 2 Oerlikon and 2-4 Vickers? I have no idea if the Vickers can be synchronized with the propellers, but if they can, they would be a great deal more effective and allow a 2x 20 mm + 4x .50 configuration (with 2 above the cowl and 2 in the wings). The .50 round is good enough against fighters as a stopgap.

Still, belt-fed Hispanos (with their 2800+ fps MV)are the way to go long term.

The 24 kg FF became the 30 kg FFL which used a longer 20x101mm round which gave an MV of 750 metres per second (2,500 ft/s) and the later heavier 39 kg FF S 20x110mm round at 830 metres per second (2,700 ft/s) so the issue does recede with development but increased weight and while what you wrote is not incorrect the main prey of any Carrier interceptor in European waters is not fighters but land based bombers of the 2, 3 and 4 engine variety where a 600 mps or 750 mps round is not such an issue and the vastly improved damage of such a round requires many x's fewer hits than a .303 or .50 would.

As you say there is little doubt that the MKV HS 404 20mm cannon or equivalent is the bench mark but in the late 30s - 1940-41 time frame it is not mature and very heavy for the then lower powered air frames of the day.

This is why I think the FF or FFL 20mm wins any Rock/Paper/Scissors analysis verses Browning MK2 303, AN/M2 .50 and Vickers .50 (it was noted by the RN that the Quad .50 Vicker's had poor performance verses metal skinned aircraft - and I seem to recall that the pre war tests by the RAF had come to the same conclusions)

Basically if you can put 6 x 50 cal MGs in the aircraft then it can take 6 x FF 20mm and certainly 4!

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I wonder what the use of the Hercules engine will do to the performance/payload of the Skua. With reasonable expectation of 1300hp (once Bristol work out the bugs) for the aircraft by 1940 there should be a significant improvement over the OTL aircraft with roughly 900hp, though it does have some aerodynamic issues.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Wind tunnel time and the correct interpretation of the results would be a major butterfly FTTL. now that is good. How much delay will the Gloster Goshawk suffer with the redesign from a single laminar spar wing tip to wing tip (as designed by Follond) to a three section main spar with two wing folds. The G35 was light for its size partly due to this one piece wing spar, so it is likely to gain weight, mind you the extra weight of the Hercules and its increased horsepower will also be a factor. So I would not expect that there will be much better performance from the in service Goshark than the original G35 prototype. However the Goshawk should due to the above factors have much more 'room' for growth as the engine Hp increases with development.