WI: Umar ibn Hafsun defeats the Umayyads - Mozarab/Muladí Al-Andalus

[Bomster]

One of my favorite historical subjects to research is Al-Andalus, the Muslim-ruled realms of the Iberian peninsula that existed between the 8th and 15th centuries. A land where East met West, Al-Andalus represented a rare example of Islamic Arab rule of Western European territory, resulting in the blending of cultures, religion, knowledge, and languages that proved to be massively influential on the development of European civilization and human history as a whole. Even though it was swept out of Iberia by the Reconquista, the influence of Al-Andalus can still be felt today, through Hispanic language, culture, art, and cuisine. For example, there are many Arabic loanwords in the Spanish language, tacos have middle eastern roots, and I remember a story my grandfather would tell me about when he met Bedouin tribesmen while deployed as a U.S. Marine during the Gulf War, and while they could not understand the English language, they could understand his Spanish.

In the late 9th century, the once-Caliphs of the entire Muslim world, the Arab Umayyad dynasty, ruled over the vast majority of the Iberian peninsula from the prosperous city of Cordoba. Their rule would last for 300 years, but would not be without resistance. Although they comprised a small portion of the population, the ruling class of Al-Andalus was almost exclusively Arab. Mozarabs, local Iberians who remained Christian under Muslim rule, and Muladí, Iberians who had converted to Islam, resented the discriminatory racial and taxation policies of their Arab overlords, creating a degree of instability within Al-Andalus.

Born around 850, Umar ibn Hafsun was a prominent leader of Iberian resistance to Umayyad rule. Simultaneously described as being of both North African and Visigothic descent, the rogue-ish and opportunistic ibn Hafsun attracted a following of disaffected Mozarab and Muladí alike, and alongside fellow rebels such as ibn Marwan and the Banu Qasi clan, would contest Umayyad rule from his fortress, Bobastro. While he would experience much success early on, several defeats against the Umayyads, such as at the Battle of Poley in 891, as well as his conversion to Christianity in 899, in what appeared to be a bid to attract the support of the Christian King of Asturias, would weaken his following. He would fight to the very end, dying in 917, and his sons would continue his fight until 928, when Bobastro fell to Emir Abd-ar-Rahman III.

Umar ibn Hafsun remains somewhat of a tragic figure in Iberian history, but he also represents a glimpse into what could have been. Had he succeeded in supplanting the minority Arab ruling class with Mozarabs and Muladí, perhaps by winning battles such as the Battle of Poley, ibn Hafsun could have ensured the creation of a stronger, multicultural and multireligious Al-Andalus. This creates an interesting scenario for speculation. Could this alt-Andalus survive for longer, perhaps even to the present? What would the society of alt-Andalus look like? Would religious and ethnic differences eventually shatter this state, or would it strengthen it, combining the best of the Christian and Islamic worlds? Would alt-Andalus fall to neighboring Christian and Muslim invaders, or would it become one of the leading powers in Europe and the Mediterranean, an even greater conduit for the exchange of trade, knowledge, and culture than the Al-Andalus of OTL? And how would this alt-Andalus impact the development of Hispanic culture, and European and world history as a whole?

 

[Bomster]

Paging @TheWitheredStriker @HumptyDumpty @Planet of Hats @jacob ningen

 

[holycookie]

Mozarabs, local Iberians who remained Christian under Muslim rule, and Muladí, Iberians who had converted to Islam, resented the discriminatory racial and taxation policies of their Arab overlords, creating a degree of instability within Al-Andalus.

They also discriminated against Berbers. The Iberian social pyramid in the period was in this sequence: Arabs, Berbers, Muladi (Iberians converted to Islam), Mozarabs (Christians who adopted Arab culture) and finally Jews.

Simultaneously described as being of both North African and Visigothic descent,

As far as I remember his father, Hafsun ibn Said, was a Berber, and his mother, Subh, was said to be of Visigothic descent. But again this can be denied depending on the situation. When Ibn Hayyan cites, Umar ibn Hafsun's lineage, he traces back to a great-grandfather named Ja'far ibn Salim, who was said to have converted to Islam and settled in southern Spain. The pedigree mentioned by Ibn Hayyan then traces back several generations to a figure named Count Marcellus (or Frugelo), who was described as the son of Alfonso and prominently had a Christian Visigothic background. The reason of the focus on his Visigothic heritage probably has to do with the fact that the mother's inheritance has more importance and weight.

ibn Hafsun could have ensured the creation of a stronger, multicultural and multireligious Al-Andalus.

Okay first we have to discuss Umar's power base. Umar's largest core of supporters were the Muladi and Mozarabs, but he had support from certain Berber groups and to a lesser extent local tribal communities, both Arab and non-Arab. But despite this, the largest base was the Iberians, so as a whole his proposals were mainly focused on these groups.

Umar had several focuses: Among them, those with the greatest impact if he manages to dethrone the Umayyads and put himself in power would be Redistribution of Wealth and Land, Multiconfessional Coexistence and Social and Political Reforms.

OK, let's go first to the most impactful in my opinion, the Redistribution of wealth:

Umar aimed to challenge the economic disparities and concentration of power among the Umayyad and Arab elites. The primary means by which this occurred was through the confiscation of properties and resources carried out by Umayyad loyalists. Umar ibn Hafsun likely targeted agricultural estates, wealthy estates owned by Umayyad officials, and other sources of wealth that were concentrated in the hands of a few. By taking control of these assets, Umar ibn Hafsun aimed to break the economic monopoly of the Umayyads and redirect the resources to benefit a broader segment of society. While Umar's loyal commanders, soldiers, and allies would naturally receive significant shares, the redistribution of wealth and land to the general population (the Iberians) would generate impressive economic dynamism, particularly for this era. However, it's important to note that the objective of this dynamism wasn't solely Umar's idea; rather, it aimed to strengthen his power base by gaining popular support and loyalty. This can be compared to William banning slavery to finance his conquests.

Landownership was not only an economic asset but also conferred social and political status. It allowed individuals to assert greater autonomy and agency in their lives. The prospect of land ownership offered both stability and economic independence. He sought to create a more equal and stable society in Al-Andalus, one where economic opportunities were more evenly distributed and where the grievances of the marginalized (his power base) were addressed.

Multiconfessional Coexistence:

When we discuss this, we must remember that Umar's syncretic ideology was a constant in his life. The promotion of religious freedom and protection of the rights of religious minorities was an important basis especially for the Muladi who did not follow the orthodox Islam of the Arab and Umayyad elite.
Muladis often venerated local folk saints and incorporated them into their spiritual practices. These folk saints were often associated with specific regions, towns, or professions. These saints were believed to possess spiritual power and were revered for their ability to intercede on behalf of the people. Something similar to Catholic behavior, then fishermen could, for example, pray to Allah and Saint Peter: the patron saint of fishermen. A big no no in islam.

Muladis in Al-Andalus adapted Iberian festivals and rituals to incorporate Islamic themes and practices. This process involved reinterpreting existing festivals within an Islamic context or creating new celebrations that reflected both Islamic and Iberian cultural elements. The goal was to maintain cultural traditions while aligning them with their Islamic faith.

I will cite two examples:
The Christian festival of Epiphany, which celebrated the visit of the Magi to the baby Jesus, was adapted by Muladis to commemorate the Islamic tradition of the Prophet Muhammad's birthday (Mawlid al-Nabi). They incorporated elements of Iberian parades and processions into the celebration, along with recitations of Islamic poetry, music, and communal meals.
The pre-Islamic Iberian festival of Beltane, which marked the beginning of summer, was adapted by Muladis to coincide with the Islamic month of Ramadan. The festival incorporated elements of Iberian bonfires, dances, and feasting, while also observing Islamic fasting and prayers.

What I am saying is that from the perspective of orthodox Islam, the Muladis' syncretic religious practices were seen as heretical, as they incorporated beliefs and rituals that diverged from the established teachings and practices of Islam. The Islamic tradition upholds the concept of tawhid (the oneness of God) and emphasizes adherence to the teachings of the Quran and the hadith (sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad). Deviations from these core principles, including the incorporation of Christian beliefs and practices, were generally considered outside the boundaries of orthodox Islamic belief. So this rise of the muladi could very well generate a new sect of Islam. Some other examples of heresy: They would recite prayers and perform religious rituals in a mixture of Arabic, Latin and Mozarabic; Muladis often integrated Christian prayers and hymns into their Islamic worship and even employed syncretic iconography and symbolism that combined elements from both Islam and Christianity.

Social and Political Reforms:

The most important in my opinion is the establishment of regional self-governance would have involved several aspects, including the ability to make decisions regarding local administration, taxation, and defense. It would have provided local communities with the opportunity to shape their own policies and regulations, taking into account their specific needs and interests. Basically Umar challenged the centralized authority of the Umayyad Caliphate and advocated for greater regional autonomy. He believed in decentralizing power and governance structures to allow for more localized decision-making and representation.
And the second most important was the fact that Umar valued meritocracy over nepotism or tribal affiliations in the administration of his principality. He appointed officials based on their abilities and qualifications rather than their social status or lineage, fostering a more efficient and accountable government.

While these three are the biggest reforms he claimed, we have dozens more that were probably forgotten over time, so it would be a very different Andalusian one.

Could this alt-Andalus survive for longer, perhaps even to the present?

perhaps, as a whole it is quite possible

What would the society of alt-Andalus look like?

It's difficult to say what it will be like. I mentioned the reforms he wanted to make. Iberia can be much more equal and inclusive, but it could very well spiral out of control and the Muladi who were once the oppressed now oppress the non-Iberians. The only difference is that this is more viable for the Muladi than for the Berbers or Arabs. Maybe a strong Shu'ubiyya in iberia long term (in otl al-andalus there were people like Ibn Gharsiya promoting this idealogy in the region).

Would religious and ethnic differences eventually shatter this state, or would it strengthen it, combining the best of the Christian and Islamic worlds?

Again, it is difficult to say anything with certainty. Ibera could implode or it could have something like iran with its own exclusive religious sect (which is the most interesting thing in my opinion).

Would alt-Andalus fall to neighboring Christian and Muslim invaders

If the country stays together I would say no. it can expand or retract but as long as it has the support of the local population it will be a viable country

, or would it become one of the leading powers in Europe and the Mediterranean

Andalus was one of the greatest powers in the Mediterranean, but due to its remoteness from the rest of the Islamic world it tended to focus its interests locally. Especially in Iberia and if things were stable at home, they would partly focus on the Maghreb

an even greater conduit for the exchange of trade, knowledge, and culture than the Al-Andalus of OTL?

Well that's a yes, Andalus was an ethnic state which prevented non-Arabs from being able to advance socially and economically. Even if this rise is now exclusive to the muladi (which is unlikely) the percentage of the active population in the country will be much higher.

And how would this alt-Andalus impact the development of Hispanic culture, and European and world history as a whole?

I have no idea, there are so many variables that it is difficult to say. We can have of the Byzantines surviving, the conquest of Egypt by the Mongols and other variables. For example Slavs were a very important group with women serving as concubines and men as slave soldiers. If Iberia loses access to this market or if the market is not able to sustain the region's demand, we could have new slave routes, whether from sub-Saharan Africa (although in the period sub-Saharan slaves were used a lot in intensive agriculture) to places like Ireland . I'll give you an example if an English kingdom (whether Scandinavian or Anglo-Saxon aka non-Norman) conquers Ireland (or Scotland) and begins to supply the demand for slaves to Al-andalus we can have a slave market with the same intensity what happened to the Slavs. Especially since the Irish (also Wales and Scotland) have a well-desired composition in the Islamic world. Lighter-skinned in conjunction with lighter hair colors, such as blonde or red hair.

 

[Bomster]

They also discriminated against Berbers. The Iberian social pyramid in the period was in this sequence: Arabs, Berbers, Muladi (Iberians converted to Islam), Mozarabs (Christians who adopted Arab culture) and finally Jews.

As far as I remember his father, Hafsun ibn Said, was a Berber, and his mother, Subh, was said to be of Visigothic descent. But again this can be denied depending on the situation. When Ibn Hayyan cites, Umar ibn Hafsun's lineage, he traces back to a great-grandfather named Ja'far ibn Salim, who was said to have converted to Islam and settled in southern Spain. The pedigree mentioned by Ibn Hayyan then traces back several generations to a figure named Count Marcellus (or Frugelo), who was described as the son of Alfonso and prominently had a Christian Visigothic background. The reason of the focus on his Visigothic heritage probably has to do with the fact that the mother's inheritance has more importance and weight.

Okay first we have to discuss Umar's power base. Umar's largest core of supporters were the Muladi and Mozarabs, but he had support from certain Berber groups and to a lesser extent local tribal communities, both Arab and non-Arab. But despite this, the largest base was the Iberians, so as a whole his proposals were mainly focused on these groups.

Umar had several focuses: Among them, those with the greatest impact if he manages to dethrone the Umayyads and put himself in power would be Redistribution of Wealth and Land, Multiconfessional Coexistence and Social and Political Reforms.

OK, let's go first to the most impactful in my opinion, the Redistribution of wealth:

Umar aimed to challenge the economic disparities and concentration of power among the Umayyad and Arab elites. The primary means by which this occurred was through the confiscation of properties and resources carried out by Umayyad loyalists. Umar ibn Hafsun likely targeted agricultural estates, wealthy estates owned by Umayyad officials, and other sources of wealth that were concentrated in the hands of a few. By taking control of these assets, Umar ibn Hafsun aimed to break the economic monopoly of the Umayyads and redirect the resources to benefit a broader segment of society. While Umar's loyal commanders, soldiers, and allies would naturally receive significant shares, the redistribution of wealth and land to the general population (the Iberians) would generate impressive economic dynamism, particularly for this era. However, it's important to note that the objective of this dynamism wasn't solely Umar's idea; rather, it aimed to strengthen his power base by gaining popular support and loyalty. This can be compared to William banning slavery to finance his conquests.

Landownership was not only an economic asset but also conferred social and political status. It allowed individuals to assert greater autonomy and agency in their lives. The prospect of land ownership offered both stability and economic independence. He sought to create a more equal and stable society in Al-Andalus, one where economic opportunities were more evenly distributed and where the grievances of the marginalized (his power base) were addressed.

Multiconfessional Coexistence:

When we discuss this, we must remember that Umar's syncretic ideology was a constant in his life. The promotion of religious freedom and protection of the rights of religious minorities was an important basis especially for the Muladi who did not follow the orthodox Islam of the Arab and Umayyad elite.
Muladis often venerated local folk saints and incorporated them into their spiritual practices. These folk saints were often associated with specific regions, towns, or professions. These saints were believed to possess spiritual power and were revered for their ability to intercede on behalf of the people. Something similar to Catholic behavior, then fishermen could, for example, pray to Allah and Saint Peter: the patron saint of fishermen. A big no no in islam.

Muladis in Al-Andalus adapted Iberian festivals and rituals to incorporate Islamic themes and practices. This process involved reinterpreting existing festivals within an Islamic context or creating new celebrations that reflected both Islamic and Iberian cultural elements. The goal was to maintain cultural traditions while aligning them with their Islamic faith.

I will cite two examples:
The Christian festival of Epiphany, which celebrated the visit of the Magi to the baby Jesus, was adapted by Muladis to commemorate the Islamic tradition of the Prophet Muhammad's birthday (Mawlid al-Nabi). They incorporated elements of Iberian parades and processions into the celebration, along with recitations of Islamic poetry, music, and communal meals.
The pre-Islamic Iberian festival of Beltane, which marked the beginning of summer, was adapted by Muladis to coincide with the Islamic month of Ramadan. The festival incorporated elements of Iberian bonfires, dances, and feasting, while also observing Islamic fasting and prayers.

What I am saying is that from the perspective of orthodox Islam, the Muladis' syncretic religious practices were seen as heretical, as they incorporated beliefs and rituals that diverged from the established teachings and practices of Islam. The Islamic tradition upholds the concept of tawhid (the oneness of God) and emphasizes adherence to the teachings of the Quran and the hadith (sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad). Deviations from these core principles, including the incorporation of Christian beliefs and practices, were generally considered outside the boundaries of orthodox Islamic belief. So this rise of the muladi could very well generate a new sect of Islam. Some other examples of heresy: They would recite prayers and perform religious rituals in a mixture of Arabic, Latin and Mozarabic; Muladis often integrated Christian prayers and hymns into their Islamic worship and even employed syncretic iconography and symbolism that combined elements from both Islam and Christianity.

Social and Political Reforms:

The most important in my opinion is the establishment of regional self-governance would have involved several aspects, including the ability to make decisions regarding local administration, taxation, and defense. It would have provided local communities with the opportunity to shape their own policies and regulations, taking into account their specific needs and interests. Basically Umar challenged the centralized authority of the Umayyad Caliphate and advocated for greater regional autonomy. He believed in decentralizing power and governance structures to allow for more localized decision-making and representation.
And the second most important was the fact that Umar valued meritocracy over nepotism or tribal affiliations in the administration of his principality. He appointed officials based on their abilities and qualifications rather than their social status or lineage, fostering a more efficient and accountable government.

While these three are the biggest reforms he claimed, we have dozens more that were probably forgotten over time, so it would be a very different Andalusian one.

perhaps, as a whole it is quite possible

It's difficult to say what it will be like. I mentioned the reforms he wanted to make. Iberia can be much more equal and inclusive, but it could very well spiral out of control and the Muladi who were once the oppressed now oppress the non-Iberians. The only difference is that this is more viable for the Muladi than for the Berbers or Arabs. Maybe a strong Shu'ubiyya in iberia long term (in otl al-andalus there were people like Ibn Gharsiya promoting this idealogy in the region).

Again, it is difficult to say anything with certainty. Ibera could implode or it could have something like iran with its own exclusive religious sect (which is the most interesting thing in my opinion).

If the country stays together I would say no. it can expand or retract but as long as it has the support of the local population it will be a viable country

Andalus was one of the greatest powers in the Mediterranean, but due to its remoteness from the rest of the Islamic world it tended to focus its interests locally. Especially in Iberia and if things were stable at home, they would partly focus on the Maghreb

Well that's a yes, Andalus was an ethnic state which prevented non-Arabs from being able to advance socially and economically. Even if this rise is now exclusive to the muladi (which is unlikely) the percentage of the active population in the country will be much higher.

I have no idea, there are so many variables that it is difficult to say. We can have of the Byzantines surviving, the conquest of Egypt by the Mongols and other variables. For example Slavs were a very important group with women serving as concubines and men as slave soldiers. If Iberia loses access to this market or if the market is not able to sustain the region's demand, we could have new slave routes, whether from sub-Saharan Africa (although in the period sub-Saharan slaves were used a lot in intensive agriculture) to places like Ireland . I'll give you an example if an English kingdom (whether Scandinavian or Anglo-Saxon aka non-Norman) conquers Ireland (or Scotland) and begins to supply the demand for slaves to Al-andalus we can have a slave market with the same intensity what happened to the Slavs. Especially since the Irish (also Wales and Scotland) have a well-desired composition in the Islamic world. Lighter-skinned in conjunction with lighter hair colors, such as blonde or red hair.

I appreciate your post, and your knowledge on the subject is very impressive and informative.

I agree with pretty much all of your speculation, and it paints a picture of a very fascinating alternate Iberian society. Alt-Andalus under Umar ibn Hafsun (perhaps he establishes his own dynasty, Umarid, Hafsunid?) would be the melting pot of Europe. With the Umayyads deposed, and power and wealth transferred to local Iberians and Berbers, I can see a new Ibero-Berber ruling class emerge. If Umar’s meritocratic tendencies become the norm it could reduce corruption and ineptitude in government. Umar’s reforms could surely strengthen the Andalusi state.

Religion is where things may get dicey however. I’m not exactly sure which group, Muladí or Mozarab, had the advantage in population and influence in Iberia at the end of the 800s. I’m going to guess it was the Muladí, given that Umar himself is descended from Muladí, and many of his allies such as Ibn Marwan and the Banu Qasi were Muladí as well. This could mean that although Alt-Andalus would be multiconfessional, the Muladí may ultimately have the upperhand, as most of the new Ibero-Berber upper class are likely going to be Muslim, not Christian. Additionally you mentioned many ways in which the Muladí adopted Christian beliefs, meaning that Muladí or Andalusian Islam as it may be called may slowly catch on amongst Christian communities in Iberia through cultural diffusion. It wouldn’t be the same kind of Islamization of the peninsula as IOTL under the Umayyads, however, as this local flavor of Islam would be more of “Islamicized Christianity”. Perhaps this makes Al-Andalus more palatable to the Northern Christian kingdoms, as well as Europe as a whole, butterflying or atleast delaying a Reconquista. However it could also trigger backlash from the wider Muslim world, since as you mention this Andalusian Islam could be seen as heretical to core believers of Orthodox Islam. Overall I could see Alt-Andalus being a Mozarabic speaking nation, in which most of the population follows the local sect of syncretic Muladí Islam with sizable Christian and Jewish minorities from both Iberia and the rest of Europe and the Mediterranean.

Umar ibn Hafsun appeared to be a man ahead of his time, and his reforms could have saved Al-Andalus down the road. The thing I could see destroying Alt-Andalus internally is if the alliance between Muladí and Mozarab dissolves, and religious differences destroy Andalusí unity. Alternatively as you said it’s possible that the native Iberians simply become the new oppressors, and discriminate against foreigners, though I’m not too sure how likely this is.

Overall, I find this scenario endlessly fascinating, and I’d love to see a TL or graphics based on this Alt-Andalus. It would be interesting to see how Alt-Andalus fares in the turbulent world of the following centuries, and how this syncretic culture continues to develop into the modern day. Additionally it goes without saying that the impact of a surviving Al-Andalus would be massively consequential on human history as a whole, due to the butterflying of what we know as Spain and Portugal. The New World may lay undiscovered for longer, but I imagine that because Al-Andalus lies at a key point in trade between Europe and Africa, they develop naval technology mirroring that of IRL Iberians. Perhaps at some point an Andalusian trade vessel gets blown off course by a storm. After several weeks, even months, lost at sea, they finally see land on the horizon…

 

[traminer]

Disclaimer: Iberia is not a historical forte of mine.

I'm glad to see this thread, because I've always been curious about the possibility of a mutli-religious Iberia/Spain (or even both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar...), but never knew enough of the players involved who might have been capable of contributing to making it happen.

My naive, uninformed notion was picturing a Spain with an elected monarch, but a narrow range of electors: a small and equal number of Christian and Muslim princes, and a Jewish ruler of Toledo to hold the balance of power whenever the Christians and Muslims might be tempted to vote on religious lines.

You can see why I'm not writing Iberian timelines.

 

[Bomster]

Disclaimer: Iberia is not a historical forte of mine.

I'm glad to see this thread, because I've always been curious about the possibility of a mutli-religious Iberia/Spain (or even both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar...), but never knew enough of the players involved who might have been capable of contributing to making it happen.

My naive, uninformed notion was picturing a Spain with an elected monarch, but a narrow range of electors: a small and equal number of Christian and Muslim princes, and a Jewish ruler of Toledo to hold the balance of power whenever the Christians and Muslims might be tempted to vote on religious lines.

You can see why I'm not writing Iberian timelines.

Perhaps Umar ibn Hafsun establishes an elective monarchy as a consequence of his preference for meritocracy? I don’t know if there was already a tradition for this present in Iberia or Islam.

 

[holycookie]

(perhaps he establishes his own dynasty, Umarid, Hafsunid?)

Maybe he puts something related to the Visigoths in the name of the dynasty? Especially due to the authority he received for being "part of the people oppressed by the Arabs",

wealth transferred to local Iberians and Berbers, I can see a new Ibero-Berber ruling class emerge.

Not Ibero-Berber, Muladi. You had support from some Berbers over Umar, just as you had support from certain Arabs. I would say that the correct thing would be to say that it is a government that at its core is Muladi. With the support of the Mozarabics, and Arab and Berber rebels who supported him. Berbers were part of the Umayyad elite below the Arabs (because according to the Umayyads nothing was as perfect as an Arab). Second elite would be the best term. Those who did not support him would likely be swept away by the revolution. So we would have some Berber and Arab elites but they will be a minority. In terms of the size of the population that supported him, Muladi were followed by Mozarabics and then Berbers. That's why when he started to lose Muladi support due to some losses, he converted to Christianity to compensate for the loss of Muladi support with an increase in Mozarabic support.

Umar’s reforms could surely strengthen the Andalusi state.

I would say that agrarian reform (division of land and wealth) would be the most impactful.

I’m not exactly sure which group, Muladí or Mozarab, had the advantage in population and influence in Iberia at the end of the 800s.

The Mozarabics had the population, but in terms of influence the Muladi were stronger. That's why his base was mutual support from these two groups. And considering the future of the otl it makes sense, these two groups tended to act together (perhaps in a more tribal idea of Iberians together against the foreigner)

however, as this local flavor of Islam would be more of “Islamicized Christianity”.

Depending on what comes out of this muladi mix, it could be something that pleases the population as a whole. In a similar way as Islam made by Muhammad took over Christian, Arab, pagan and Persian customs.

butterflying or atleast delaying a Reconquista.

The radicalization of Iberian Christians comes with the rise of Berber fanatics. Without this, the dispute will continue but without losing control as occurred in the OTL.

However it could also trigger backlash from the wider Muslim world, since as you mention this Andalusí Islam could be seen as heretical to core believers of Orthodox Islam.

Yes, but it was kind of like that in OTL. With the two Berber caliphates being in some ways a reaction to Andalusian hedonism. The difference is that this will probably happen before and be stronger, at the same time in this era we have the rise of the Fatimids. So we may well have a dispute between orthodox Sunni Berbers in the Morocco region (something like the Almohads and Almoravids), Andalusí Islam in Iberia and Shia in Tunisia and eastern Algeria. If this happens, we may have a fixation on the religions and identities of these three peoples. With Andalusians following their sect, Berbers following Sunni and Algerians/Tunisians (in the period it would be Ifriqiya) becoming Shia. On the other hand, if this happens, say goodbye to the Berbers in Iberia.

The thing I could see destroying Alt-Andalus internally is if the alliance between Muladí and Mozarab dissolves,

This is possible but unlikely, perhaps a few centuries in the future. But Muladi were basically the final stage of the Mozarabics.

Alternatively as you said it’s possible that the native Iberians simply become the new oppressors, and discriminate against foreigners, though I’m not too sure how likely this is.

It's something very common in history. The oppressed, instead of striving for liberation, tend themselves to become oppressors. Often instead of choosing to be, people previously oppressed turn into the people doing the oppressing. Although in this case it would probably be aimed at Berbers and Arabs. Regarding how likely this is, only two places have had Shu'ubiyya movements, Iran and Iberia.

The New World may lay undiscovered for longer

If I had to bet on the discovery of the new world, England or France would probably be the best placed. france may seem strange but in otl they disputed the colonization of brazil with the portuguese, and columbus tried to be financed by the english and francess in otl. Although Andalus, if it makes the right choices, can also compete (especially if the country becomes isolated in the world due to its religion). But considering that the revolt takes place in the 10th, there is a lot to happen. I mentioned some possibilities in otl. But we have several other possibilities for the Fatimis to control and convert Egypt and Ifriqiya to Shia and the center of Sunnism being the Abbasid empire( Iran+Iraq ). With Syria being a dispute between the Sunni, Shia and Byzantines.

 

[holycookie]

but never knew enough of the players involved who might have been capable of contributing to making it happen.

Another interesting figure is King Wolf of Murcia (Rex Lupus, his title was given by Christians). A muladi "king" who almost conquered the Iberian part of the Almohad caliphate in the 12th century.

Perhaps Umar ibn Hafsun establishes an elective monarchy as a consequence of his preference for meritocracy?

Considering the idea of independence for the different regions of Al Andalus, it is almost medieval federalism. Perhaps a proto-parliament, with each region having Muslim, Christian and Jewish representatives. The English parliament was created in 1215, so it would not be impossible for Umar to create a proto-parliament to manage the new kingdom. Perhaps with a Muladi magna Carta being signed by the new dynasty created by Umar. Which limited the power of the emir by avoiding what the Umayyads were trying to do and established certain rights for the new elite (muladi and mozarabic).

I don’t know if there was already a tradition for this present in Iberia or Islam.

the Visigoths had an elective monarchy and the first caliphs were elected.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How about the dynasty based in what would become Iraq, the Abbasid dynasty? Given that the Abbasid’s depended on overthrowing the Umayyad caliphate, an Iberian Muladi Muslim state that deposed of the Umayyad caliphate remnants in Iberia would be more than welcome to start a trading relationship with the Abbasids.

 

[holycookie]

n Iberian Muladi Muslim state that deposed of the Umayyad caliphate remnants in Iberia would be more than welcome to start a trading relationship with the Abbasids.

In this case it would have to be the Banu Qasi or the wolf king. The wolf king recognized the Abbasids as legitimate caliphs. But the era of the Wolf King is in the 12th century.If you want an Umayyad fall, the Banu Qasi would be the best choice, they were the strongest Muladi family in Iberia. At their height in the 850s, the family head Musa ibn Musa al-Qasawi was so powerful and autonomous that he would be called 'The Third Monarch of Hispania'.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

In this case it would have to be the Banu Qasi or the wolf king. The wolf king recognized the Abbasids as legitimate caliphs. But the era of the Wolf King is in the 12th century.If you want an Umayyad fall, the Banu Qasi would be the best choice, they were the strongest Muladi family in Iberia. At their height in the 850s, the family head Musa ibn Musa al-Qasawi was so powerful and autonomous that he would be called 'The Third Monarch of Hispania'.

Ah okay. Point is, if the Umayyads are overthrown in the late ninth century, then whatever Iberian dynasty emerges that adheres to Islam could be accepted by the Abbasid caliphate, which was at the height of its power during the ninth century.

 

[holycookie]

Ah okay. Point is, if the Umayyads are overthrown in the late ninth century, then whatever Iberian dynasty emerges that adheres to Islam could be accepted by the Abbasid caliphate, which was at the height of its power during the ninth century.

It is quite probable, even if only in a symbolic way. But this happened to the Umayyads in the beginning, after they declared themselves caliphs (a few centuries later). The Banu Qasi were quite liberal in matters of religion to a certain extent. There is a member of the house (I don't remember his name) who was a Sunni, converted to Shia when he visited the Fatimid Caliphate, and then converted to Christianity. And when he returns home he becomes sunni again. But it all depends on who is the leader of the house.

 

[Bomster]

It is quite probable, even if only in a symbolic way. But this happened to the Umayyads in the beginning, after they declared themselves caliphs (a few centuries later). The Banu Qasi were quite liberal in matters of religion to a certain extent. There is a member of the house (I don't remember his name) who was a Sunni, converted to Shia when he visited the Fatimid Caliphate, and then converted to Christianity. And when he returns home he becomes sunni again. But it all depends on who is the leader of the house.

Based upon what little I know of 9th century Iberia the Banu Qasi as well as ibn Marwan were both at one point or another allies of ibn Hafsun.

 

[holycookie]

Based upon what little I know of 9th century Iberia the Banu Qasi as well as ibn Marwan were both at one point or another allies of ibn Hafsun.

the Banu Qasi supported Umar. In 898 Lubb ibn Muhammad the heir of the Banu Qasi clan was leading an army to support Umar when the death of his father at Zaragoza forced Lubb to abandon the campaign. If Umar had won, they would be one of the biggest houses in the kingdom (or even the leaders of the new kingdom if Umar doesn't try to take the throne and prefers to become the Vizer and carry out his reform). Lubb was a very interesting man he was trying to form a coalition of muladi houses with Umar, and in 905 he engineered a coup in Navarre (well the coup was by the King of Asturias, the counts of Aragon and Pallar, but he helped it happen).
I don't know about Ibn Maruane, but it would make sense. He was a muladi and there was a muladi uprising taking place to take power in the emirate (Also had the same peculiarity as umar on religion).

 

[Nivek]

How about the dynasty based in what would become Iraq, the Abbasid dynasty? Given that the Abbasid’s depended on overthrowing the Umayyad caliphate, an Iberian Muladi Muslim state that deposed of the Umayyad caliphate remnants in Iberia would be more than welcome to start a trading relationship with the Abbasids.

The Abbasids did were more focused on the expansion and the religious consolidation so they could see influx of religious ideas from Badgad too

 

[holycookie]

@Bomster The 9th century would in theory be the ideal time for the Muladi to take over Al Andalus. Umar seems pragmatic enough to accommodate these Muladi's demands and at the same time gain support from Berbers disloyal to the Umayyads. Especially due to its policy of greater independence for the regions.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

@Bomster The 9th century would in theory be the ideal time for the Muladi to take over Al Andalus. Umar seems pragmatic enough to accommodate these Muladi's demands and at the same time gain support from Berbers disloyal to the Umayyads. Especially due to its policy of greater independence for the regions.

Could the Muladis in the Iberian Peninsula expand trading contacts with the Muslim states and empires of West Africa?

 

[holycookie]

Could the Muladis in the Iberian Peninsula expand trading contacts with the Muslim states and empires of West Africa?

I would say yes, in theory the greatest Islamic contact due to proximity will be in the Maghreb. But as long as the Mediterranean does not become a Christian lake, trade with other Islamic kingdoms in the Mediterranean will exist. West African empire is more difficult especially at that time. With contact occurring through the Maghreb emirates. In the future, with naval advancement, it is theoretically possible. A direct contact requires Magren (Morocco at least) to be in Andalusian control. And even so, contact will be through Arab and Berber caravans.

The Abbasids did were more focused on the expansion and the religious consolidation so they could see influx of religious ideas from Badgad too

another power that is interesting to see how they would react to the Fatimids. It will be interesting to see how they would react to things like the Zaj revolt.

 

[Bomster]

I would say yes, in theory the greatest Islamic contact due to proximity will be in the Maghreb. But as long as the Mediterranean does not become a Christian lake, trade with other Islamic kingdoms in the Mediterranean will exist. West African empire is more difficult especially at that time. With contact occurring through the Maghreb emirates. In the future, with naval advancement, it is theoretically possible. A direct contact requires Magren (Morocco at least) to be in Andalusian control. And even so, contact will be through Arab and Berber caravans.

another power that is interesting to see how they would react to the Fatimids. It will be interesting to see how they would react to things like the Zaj revolt.

Would African trade be prominent enough to encourage the development of seafaring technology? Andalus could become a naval power mirroring Spain and Portugal, and once again could be the first European power since the Vikings to contact the New World.

 

[traminer]

Would African trade be prominent enough to encourage the development of seafaring technology? Andalus could become a naval power mirroring Spain and Portugal, and once again could be the first European power since the Vikings to contact the New World.

It was OTL, and nothing above has changed that.

The difference here seems to me that instead of Portugal chasing Prester John and easy gold, they'd be chasing easy gold and products and markets they understand better through overland trade partners. Seafaring advancements would be more in search of greater efficiencies of known trade. Exploration would follow for all the normal reasons.