WI: Umar ibn Hafsun defeats the Umayyads - Mozarab/Muladí Al-Andalus

[holycookie]

In Catholicism as well though prayer to saints isn’t allowed- you ask for the saints intercession with god.

Well when discussing this we have to have well defined saints in Islam and Catholicism.

In Islam, while saints are respected and their intercession is sought, the worship of saints or any other being besides Allah is strictly prohibited. Muslims direct their worship and devotion solely to Allah and consider any form of worship directed at saints as a violation of monotheism. In Catholicism, saints are venerated and honored. Catholics may pray to saints, seek their intercession, and ask for their guidance and protection. However, worship and adoration are reserved for God alone.

Basically the biggest difference is that Catholic saints are stronger than Islamic saints, having a more important and direct role in the contact between God and his believer. Bringing a more intimate and local figure to this faithful. While in Islam the saint is an important figure he cannot interact between the believer and god, with the relationship between god and his believer being direct,

The strong force of saints in Muladi Islam indicates that saints behave in a similar way to Catholic saints (which makes sense considering Iberian culture). So if the form of Islam practiced by the Muladi is fixed as Andalusian Islam (which is actually a hybrid of Christianity and Islam), you will get a lot of backlash from the rest of the Islamic world. But this, as seen with Shia in Persia, can cause a direct link between the Andalusian identity and this Muladi Islam (something we see in this era of rebellion with leaders adhering to this hybrid of the two religions. With their armies being composed of Mozarabics and Muladis). In that case, say goodbye to other forms of Islam on this peninsula.

but it’s ahistorical to say that that wasn’t a big part of Islamic cultures from at least the 1200s-1900, was the official position of Muslim rulers and courts

Another curious thing is the tradition of homosexuality among the Arab elite (and later seen on a smaller scale with the Ottomans, but still large).

 

[Nivek]

In Islam, while saints are respected and their intercession is sought

Not at all, the concept of Saint doesn't exist,there's not intercession, everything is straight to Allah, anything else is Shikr

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

you will get a lot of backlash from the rest of the Islamic world.

Do we really think that this slight nuance in the different roles that saintly figures play will not only be noticed by foreign Muslims who are separated by thousands of miles of geography, language etc? Especially given that otl differences like Muslim rulers performing official wedding ceremonies to ocean goddesses passed by unnoticed and unremarked upon by the rest of the Muslim world, I feel like it’s not gonna be that consequential.

 

[holycookie]

Not at all, the concept of Saint doesn't exist

They exist in certain sectors. The term Wali is used for saint.

sufism from the wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wali#Sufism

In certain esoteric teachings of Islam, there is said to be a cosmic spiritual hierarchy whose ranks include walis (saints, friends of God), abdals (changed ones), headed by a ghawth (helper) or qutb (pole, axis). The details vary according to the source.

One source is the 12th Century Persian Ali Hujwiri. In his divine court, there are three hundred akhyār ("excellent ones"), forty abdāl ("substitutes"), seven abrār ("piously devoted ones"), four awtād ("pillars"), three nuqabā ("leaders") and one qutb.

"All these saints know one another and cannot act without mutual consent. It is the task of the Awtad to go round the whole world every night, and if there should be any place on which their eyes have not fallen, next day some flaw will appear in that place, and they must then inform the Qutb in order that he may direct his attention to the weak spot and that by his blessings the imperfection may be remedied.
Another is from Ibn Arabi, who lived in Moorish Spain. It has a more exclusive structure. There are eight nujabā ("nobles"), twelve nuqabā, seven abdāl, four awtād, two a'immah ("guides"), and the qutb."

According to the 20th-century Sufi Inayat Khan, there are seven degrees in the hierarchy. In ascending order, they are pir, buzurg, wali, ghaus, qutb, nabi and rasul He does not say how the levels are populated. Pirs and buzurgs assist the spiritual progress of those who approach them. Walis may take responsibility for protecting a community and generally work in secret. Qutbs are similarly responsible for large regions. Nabis are charged with bringing a reforming message to nations or faiths, and hence have a public role. Rasuls likewise have a mission of transformation of the world at large.

another site talking about Sufism: https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37112

In certain esoteric teachings of Islam, there is said to be a cosmic spiritual hierarchy whose ranks include walis (saints, friends of God), abdals (changed ones), headed by a ghawth (helper) or qutb (pole, axis). The details vary according to the source.

One source is the 12th Century Persian Ali Hujwiri. In his divine court, there are three hundred akhyār ("excellent ones"), forty abdāl ("substitutes"), seven abrār ("piously devoted ones"), four awtād ("pillars"), three nuqabā ("leaders") and one qutb.

Another is from Ibn Arabi, who lived in Moorish Spain. It has a more exclusive structure. There are eight nujabā ("nobles"), twelve nuqabā, seven abdāl, four awtād, two a’immah ("guides"), and the qutb.

According to the 20th-century Sufi Inayat Khan, there are seven degrees in the hierarchy. In ascending order, they are pir, buzurg, wali, ghaus, qutb, nabi and rasul He does not say how the levels are populated. Pirs and buzurgs assist the spiritual progress of those who approach them. Walis may take responsibility for protecting a community and generally work in secret. Qutbs are similarly responsible for large regions. Nabis are charged with bringing a reforming message to nations or faiths, and hence have a public role. Rasuls likewise have a mission of transformation of the world at large.

"All these saints know one another and cannot act without mutual consent. It is the task of the Awtad to go round the whole world every night, and if there should be any place on which their eyes have not fallen, next day some flaw will appear in that place, and they must then inform the Qutb in order that he may direct his attention to the weak spot and that by his blessings the imperfection may be remedied."

Another is from Ibn Arabi, who lived in Moorish Spain. It has a more exclusive structure. There are eight nujabā ("nobles"), twelve nuqabā, seven abdāl, four awtād, two a’immah ("guides"), and the qutb.[5]

According to the 20th-century Sufi Inayat Khan, there are seven degrees in the hierarchy. In ascending order, they are pir, buzurg, wali, ghaus, qutb, nabi and rasul He does not say how the levels are populated. Pirs and buzurgs assist the spiritual progress of those who approach them. Walis may take responsibility for protecting a community and generally work in secret. Qutbs are similarly responsible for large regions. Nabis are charged with bringing a reforming message to nations or faiths, and hence have a public role. Rasuls likewise have a mission of transformation of the world at large

Do we really think that this slight nuance in the different roles that saintly figures play will not only be noticed by foreign Muslims who are separated by thousands of miles of geography, language etc?

Maybe, I would say no. Now from the closest groups I would say yes. The Maghreb in the region, being the group that has the most interaction with Andalusians, will feel this difference. Now whether they have the capacity to do something is another thing. Especially if, like in otl, you have a fundamentalist movement forming in the region (almohads and almovarids). We also have Fatimids in otl who would probably attack the peculiarities of this sect to try to gain more legitimacy. But more distant kingdoms like Egypt or Persia are concerned with other things. And even if they didn't, they don't have the capacity to project power in this region, at most military or monetary support for a local anti-Andalusian power.

I feel like it’s not gonna be that consequential.

The consequence I'm talking about is probably in North Africa. A comparison would be something like the Hussites or other pre-Protestant reformist groups. They caused reactions from the Catholic world. In this case I would say that England would be a good comparison for Andalus, far enough from the heart of religious power and strong enough to prevent invasions,

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How could Al-Andalus handle events like the Crusades, the Mongol invasions of Persia, Iraq, and the Black Death?

 

[Nivek]

How could Al-Andalus handle events like the Crusades, the Mongol invasions of Persia, Iraq, and the Black Death?

Dude butterflies, those change everything

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

Tagging for interest

 

[holycookie]

How could Al-Andalus handle events like the Crusades, the Mongol invasions of Persia, Iraq, and the Black Death?

Let's assume that things like the rise of the Gengin Khan, the Turkish migration and its consequences (aka the Crusades) kind of stay the same. Of all the things mentioned, the Black Death and the Crusades would be the most problematic. The Black Death and its problems are obvious. The crusades depend on the strength of the Iberian Catholic kingdoms and how much France will invest. I would say that Pamplona/Navarre and Catalonia will be French territories or vassals. Other than that, the north of Iberia depends on the policies of Asturia and Al Andalus and the power dynamics.
The Mongols are not a threat, but they could be useful in validating the Andalusians, especially if they conquer Egypt as well, making cordoba the only strong Islamic center. Even if Egypt remains independent, Andalus being spared this violence will differentiate how they see the world versus the center of the Islamic world.
If the Mongols did not ascend,that region has a tradition of generating great conquerors. We can have someone more radical than Genghis Khan or someone calmer. Hordes tend to be barbaric in nature. Atila for example.

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

Tagging for interest

Fun trivia tidbit (since I assume you were replying here to get notifs): you can get notifs from any thread, even if you don't post on them, by clicking the "Watch" button up top. It's to the right of the pagination.

 

[holycookie]

Another period that is interesting and would have a lot of ramifications on Andalus is Abd al-ʿAzīz rebelling and securing the kingdom for himself. Abd married Egilona, wife of the late Visigothic king. Abd is the son of Musa (who conquered Iberia) and governor of the region.

From the wiki:
Both Christian and Muslim sources make her responsible for the governor's assassination, and there is no reason to doubt the general portrayal of her role. The Christian Chronicle of 754 records that: "on the advice of Queen Egilona, wife of the late king Roderic, whom he had joined to himself, [ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz] tried to throw off the Arab yoke from his neck and retain the conquered kingdom of Iberia for himself." The ninth-century Muslim historian ʿAbd al-Ḥakam, on the other hand, says that he ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz was killed because Egilona "had made him a Christian".
Egilona stoked his royal ambitions, urging him to act so as to attain the respect her first husband had.The Akhbār majmūʿa of 858 even claims that Egilona had a crown made out of her own jewels and forced her husband to wear it on the grounds that "a king without a crown is a king without a kingdom".She also tried to have his men perform acts of obeisance to him in Seville.

 

[Nivek]

Another period that is interesting and would have a lot of ramifications on Andalus is Abd al-ʿAzīz rebelling and securing the kingdom for himself. Abd married Egilona, wife of the late Visigothic king. Abd is the son of Musa (who conquered Iberia) and governor of the region.

From the wiki:
Both Christian and Muslim sources make her responsible for the governor's assassination, and there is no reason to doubt the general portrayal of her role. The Christian Chronicle of 754 records that: "on the advice of Queen Egilona, wife of the late king Roderic, whom he had joined to himself, [ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz] tried to throw off the Arab yoke from his neck and retain the conquered kingdom of Iberia for himself." The ninth-century Muslim historian ʿAbd al-Ḥakam, on the other hand, says that he ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz was killed because Egilona "had made him a Christian".
Egilona stoked his royal ambitions, urging him to act so as to attain the respect her first husband had.The Akhbār majmūʿa of 858 even claims that Egilona had a crown made out of her own jewels and forced her husband to wear it on the grounds that "a king without a crown is a king without a kingdom".She also tried to have his men perform acts of obeisance to him in Seville.

That's more ASOAIF Historical fantasy than reality, the reality is that if he tried to stray,he got caught and executed by treason

 

[DUWANG]

Alright, so I am wondering if this alternate Iberian Romance would abandon the Arab alphabet outside of religious purposes as an attempt to get away from Arab influence/because an abjad is simply worse to use for them or would the go the way of Farsi and simply rework the Arab alphabet to suit a Romance language?

 

[holycookie]

the reality is that if he tried to stray,he got caught and executed by treason

He was killed due to central government suspicion.

 

[holycookie]

Alright, so I am wondering if this alternate Iberian Romance would abandon the Arab alphabet outside of religious purposes as an attempt to get away from Arab influence/because an abjad is simply worse to use for them or would the go the way of Farsi and simply rework the Arab alphabet to suit a Romance language?

I think it depends on the level of anti-Arab sentiment. And whether Umar's victory calms this feeling or whether the victory makes the feeling escalate. If the feeling escalates, it is quite possible, even probable. The breakdown of Arab power and reforms can give a greater sense of equality, but it can also be used by the muladi as a form of revenge against the Arabs, making any real power unfeasible for them. The result would be difficult to say whether we will have an Arab migration to North Africa or a long-term absorption of the Arabs by the Muladi. An example of something that could happen. On the Umayyad iberia important positions such as the imam of Cordoba and other prominent positions were exclusive to Arabs. Muladis can reverse this and prohibit non-muladis from ascending to that position. It all depends on how angry the muladi are. And how many and which Arab and Berber clans will survive.

 

[DUWANG]

I think it depends on the level of anti-Arab sentiment. And whether Umar's victory calms this feeling or whether the victory makes the feeling escalate. If the feeling escalates, it is quite possible, even probable. The breakdown of Arab power and reforms can give a greater sense of equality, but it can also be used by the muladi as a form of revenge against the Arabs, making any real power unfeasible for them. The result would be difficult to say whether we will have an Arab migration to North Africa or a long-term absorption of the Arabs by the Muladi. An example of something that could happen. On the Umayyad iberia important positions such as the imam of Cordoba and other prominent positions were exclusive to Arabs. Muladis can reverse this and prohibit non-muladis from ascending to that position. It all depends on how angry the muladi are. And how many and which Arab and Berber clans will survive.

Makes me think about and Andalusia that survives long enough where the renaissance and nationalism evolves and enters Andalusia.
We could see an attempt in Andalusia to go back to Roman roots. Basically trying to show itself as a fellow European nation that only shares Islam with the otherwise "totally foreign" and "totally not literally being neighboring" Arabs and Berbers? That could include a much later adoption of the Latin alphabet. Probably either with it's orthography inspired by Latin, Italian, French or an modern orthography.

 

[Nivek]

Alright, so I am wondering if this alternate Iberian Romance would abandon the Arab alphabet outside of religious purposes as an attempt to get away from Arab influence/because an abjad is simply worse to use for them or would the go the way of Farsi and simply rework the Arab alphabet to suit a Romance language?

Makes me think about and Andalusia that survives long enough where the renaissance and nationalism evolves and enters Andalusia.
We could see an attempt in Andalusia to go back to Roman roots. Basically trying to show itself as a fellow European nation that only shares Islam with the otherwise "totally foreign" and "totally not literally being neighboring" Arabs and Berbers? That could include a much later adoption of the Latin alphabet. Probably either with it's orthography inspired by Latin, Italian, French or an modern orthography.

I think you underestimated how important is arabic for the quran reading and also you can write romance in Arabic alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljamiado

I

 

[holycookie]

nationalism evolves and enters Andalusia.

The ethnic struggle is in part proto-nationalism, Berber Arabs and Iberians fighting for control of the country. With well-defined lines of what is Arab, Berber and Muladi/Mozarabic.

We could see an attempt in Andalusia to go back to Roman roots.

We can see this much earlier, in OTL Ibn Gharsiya already talks about Roman cultural supremacy against the arab one. This was in the 11th century. It is not unthinkable that the coalition of Mozarabics and Muladis used Roman heritage against Arab/Berber heritage (Umar had legitimacy largely because he had noble Visigothic blood, for example). It was discussed earlier in this theard whether Umar would adopt Visigothic iconography after the establishment of his dynasty. Adopting Visigoth iconography in conjunction with Roman iconography is not very far or difficult.

Basically trying to show itself as a fellow European nation that only shares Islam

This will depend on the power of the kingdom, if it is strong enough it can be considered, can it be. Because the idea of Europe is linked to Christianity. Andalus may well see itself as a civilization apart from the rest. Islamic but not Arabized, with a majority Visigothic and Roman culture but without being Christian.

 

[holycookie]

I think you underestimated how important is arabic for the quran reading and also you can write romance in Arabic alphabet

Yes, I would say they would probably keep an Arabic script. Now a curious factor is the printing press, if writing in Arabic is very unfeasible with the primitive machine, the use of Mozarabic Latin could be spread in this way. If this happens, we may have to abandon Arabic writing for Latin in the long term. With Arabic only remaining in religious matters (a good exemple is the Catholic church using Latin in its masses but with the population as a whole speaking another language).

 

[Nivek]

Yes, I would say they would probably keep an Arabic script. Now a curious factor is the printing press, if writing in Arabic is very unfeasible with the primitive machine, the use of Mozarabic Latin could be spread in this way. If this happens, we may have to abandon Arabic writing for Latin in the long term. With Arabic only remaining in religious matters (a good exemple is the Catholic church using Latin in its masses but with the population as a whole speaking another language).

Butterflies, even there was the printing scrolls in middle east far before the printing press, is just the lack of perfection of the characters(especially for the book matter the most) make it secondary but at the time they already used arabic alphabet for romance, so that would stick

 

[DUWANG]

I think you underestimated how important is arabic for the quran reading and also you can write romance in Arabic alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljamiado

I

You are right on the second part.
But I didn't suggest to replace Arabic entirely.
What I suggested is restricting Arabic and the Arabic alphabet for religious purposes.
That means that the quran and other text of religious matters would be continued in Arabic.
At least for a much longer time.